KJP Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 Hi, I recently had some work done to repair damage after the wind blew my bike over. Ever since the repair (not the storm, it was fine up to the time I got the bike back) the battery has gone flat after 2-3 days doing my regular morning/evening commute through town. Only way to keep it going is not to use headlights, keep revs aboue 2000 whenever possible. Previous battery lasted years, I bought a new one and it lasted 2 days. It is clear the regulator can charge the battery, the service manual says full charge voltage at 5000 RPM. The contacts in the wiring loom are all clean. The battery doesn't go flat when key is off. I can remove all fuses except engine/ignition and the current doesn't change (so no trapped wires etc) The alternator coils are all generating volts on a scope, but appear to clip at 10V at idle, and then clip at higher voltages as the revs wind up. at Idle my bike consumes up to 1.5A, obviously sitting at traffic lights with headlight and brake lights this goes up considerably. >2000 RPM means 30mph - hard to do much of that in the rush hour. Garage say they are baffled. Anyone with a good fazer able to measure their current at idle, no lights on - is it charging or discharging, and how much? cheers. KJP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Mc Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 Hi. What voltage are you reading across the terminals with the engine running and with the engine turned off? Is your battery the standard maintenance-free gel type? Confirm the voltage and let me know (PM me if you want) and I'll compare to my '03 Fazer 600. (Had to buy a new battery about a month ago). Should be about 13.8-14.2V with the engine running... Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted March 16, 2007 Author Share Posted March 16, 2007 Hi Paul, I just picked up your reply too late as I've just come in from the car park at work! I had to ride home last night with headlight on as my son was late out of school. This a.m. bike wouldn't start without a push. I went the long way and kept revs up, left bike standing this am and then measured it. Sitting at 11.8V at the moment, but that's cos I didn't have a long enough run. The new battery is one that came with acid to add and then is sealed for life. I know the volts are high when engine is reving, but it's really the fact that at idel there isn't charge going in. I'll measure the idle voltage and send you the numbers later, if you'd be so kind as to compare with yours. cheers, Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Mc Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Hi Keith, Can you please let me know what sort of work was needed on the bike/what was doen to her after she blew over? With my duff battery it would run okay, just hold no charge, but showed okay volts until the starter was thumbed and then the volts dropped. Guess that 3 yrs is about all that can be expected of these batteries.....? How long is the run (work?) that you usually do on the bike - my understanding has always been that at idle a bike/car basically uses up whatever volts it generates, so won't charge a battery particularly well at idle (info from a mechanic uncle).... My bike is seldom used, but the numbers for voltage will be better than nowt for comparing to. Whereabouts in the country are you? Cheers, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted March 17, 2007 Author Share Posted March 17, 2007 Hi Paul, well, after yesterday's fun and games I took her for a 56 mile ride at motorway speeds (mostly). before I went, I measured, and the second column is after the 56 miles. (Must have hit a key in the middle of typing as it posted it! Here's the full script.) Idle is at 1000 rpm. 1000 11.59 12.33 2000 11.59 12.37 2500 11.75 12.46 3000 12.56 12.83 4000 13.69 14.2 5000 14.03 14.2 I live in Cambridge. The work done was all the left side of the bike, new fairing, wind shield, left indicator, bar end, foot peg, plus new Givi rack and top box. Also new main stand as the old one bent as she toppled. My normal route is about 10 miles, with 2 starts. I do it in winter and summer, every school day. Usually I drive with dipped headlight. I agree with your thought, that with the engine running the battery shouldn't be contributing anything, whereas mine is drawing 1.5A to keep the engine idling. You can see that after a good run the battery vboltage has ercovered, but there still isn'yt any charge going in until around 3000 revs. I';ve just bought a 2nd hand voltage reg off ebay - so that will give me one to play with and see what its characteristics are too. I appreciate your taking the time to chat. I think I might end up kicking up a stink at the delares where the work was done, as the bike was fine before they did the wortk, and it's killed two batteries in 2 weeks. take care. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Mc Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 Hi Keith, Those numbers look absolutely fine to me - suggesting that there's nothing wrong with your alternator (and also the connection betwixt the battery and the engine, and also the earth on the alternator (both possible causes of under-charging)). Also doesn't seem to be over charging either..... Am trying to think if any of the wiring loom can have been damaged or interferred with during the repair work - but I'm not overly familiar with the routing of the wires on the fazer (after years of rough machines this is a 'toy' and is low mileage and basically mint at the moment) - worthwhile having a look and see if anything is shorting/rubbing in the repair area, might be the cause of the battery problems. The manual shows the reg rectifier on the circuit diagram, but no info for checking it - possibly a problem with the connection of the reg/rect (under the headstock-ish?), possibly interfered with when fitting the new fairing? I'd have a look at that first, confirm all the connector blocks are joined up as they should be and that the reg rect is mounted correctly (may earth to the frame via a bolt etc?) -one other notion, does the horn work - has that connection been interfered with... may not have noticed, may be earthing/draining the battery quicker than usual. Two more questions - do you have an alarm on the bike (or other accessory - heated grips etc) and what do you mean by killed two batteries in two weeks - are they just not holding charge etc, or are they totally fubar? Is it possible that the batteries are okay, but the bike is failing to keep them charged? Would expect winter riding short distance with the lights off to need a battery optimiser/permanent trickle charger plugged in when at home..... There are instructions in the manual (if you have it) for checking the battery - but these mean nothing, my battery was giving 'ok' Voltage readings X hours after charging, but still NG as soon as the starter motor was thumbed - even so, bike ran fine (with lights on) with essentially a dead battery (just didn't have the power to turn the starter!). Check the reg/rect itself, and the horn first off - if still a mystery/if the 2nd reg doesn't help, then get back to us. Paul (Shame you're not near Swindon, would have tried sticking parts from my electrical system onto your machine for trials....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 It may be worth taking the battery back and trying another as you may well have just picked a dud one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 good point Tomo. I will try the secondhand charger when it lands first, 'cos I bought the battery mail order. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 Hiya Paul, I didn't answer all your questions before. I don't have an alarm or heated bars (hope nobody with criminal intent is reading this ho-ho) I do have a satnav, but since the first battery problem I disconnected it. The first time the battery went flat, I re-charged it. When it happened again a few days later i bought a new one. That went flat after about 4 days. That was when i took it back to the garage and said it was broken. They recharged it, and did the service manual checks. They say they can't hold stock of parts as they have to buy them even if they don't use them! They wait for another bike to turn up and borrow bits. I don't think that's acceptable, but they are my nearsest garage, and where I bought the bike new and had it serviced. I've checked all the wiring I can see and it is good. I've run with all fuses out except ignition so I know that's where the current goes at idle. If my spare volt reg arrives I'll tell you if it makes any difference. I suspect not, maybe the ignition has been degraded (I'm wondering if they used a welder for the repair work - they are notoriuos for blowing silicon). The electronic ignition can't be completely US as it rides fine - even up to 80mph plus (just testing your honour). I was born in Swindon, but only a few distant rellies left there now. cheers, Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Mc Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Hi Keith. Did you have a look at the wiring/check for short circuits, and did you confirm that the horn (and possibly the fan) are working correctly? Probably an idea to check that everything electrical is working, also check your fuses for corrosion/check that all the connector blocks on the loom are fitting well.... Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted March 24, 2007 Author Share Posted March 24, 2007 Hi Paul, so I'm running out of things now. Everything works (fans, hron etc) and all connections are good (it's really clean under the tank where all the wiring connectors are in their little plastic boxes). I got my replacement votage regulator and measured it on the bench. Basically its output is about .8V below the input until you get towards 15.8V in, when the output starts to clamp hard at 14.8V, exactl hat you need for a lead acid battery. I fitted, ran into Cambridge and drove back with headlight on. By the time I got back, the instruments had switched off, but by reving up the headlight grew brighter, and again at 3000 revs the instruments switched back on and the rev counter flicked up. So today I took the cover off the generator and looked at the stator colis and the rotor. They look pristine, and I couldn't see any cracks in the rotor (which is a big circular magnet). Put it back together. Final test was to run the bike off my car battery (cos bike one was too flat to start it), but with the generator disconnected from the wiring loom. Instead I put it through a 3 phase rectifier, and connected the output to a pair of car stop light bulbs. At idle it could only produce 5V, at 3000 RPM it was near 14.5 V Conclusion, my generator no longer makes enough volts to power the bike. It used to run fine. What changed while it was in the workshop? I guess it needs a comparison with another bike now, as I can't see myself finding a replacement stator and rotor on ebay! take care. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Mc Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 Hi Keith, Have you measured the resistance of the stator coils? Generator cover off, should be a 3 connector block - two connectors side by side, third one below. Tester on ohms setting, +ve lead on the bottom connector: with the -ve lead on each of the other 2 blocks, should read 0.36 to 0.44 ohms at 20°C - otherwise "replace the stator coil assembly"(!). Paul If you're making 14.5V at 5K rpm, isn't that enough to charge the battery? They might have used a welder to repair the bike???? - Wasn't aware that the frame was damaged - isn't electrical welding totally NFG for a bikes charging system - have to disconnect the generator completely (or wire it in a special manner - not sure, can't remember, but have vague memory that it will mess up the generator? (Distant memory, not a welder myself - mig welding with a mate on a rusty CX500, still have the melted plastic toolbox.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJP Posted April 6, 2007 Author Share Posted April 6, 2007 So Guys - I'm sorted. I measured the stator coils - not easy as most meters can't distinguish between 0.3 and 0.4 ohms. Anyway, proved that coils around 0.18 ohms. Examined stator (5 hex bolts) and saw coils scuffed with silicone sealant on. Pressed with thumb and resistance changed. Teased coils apart and resistance went to 9.4 ohms on each coil. Reassembled and connected, ran up engine and get 2 amp INTO battery at 1000RPM with headlight on! Replaced old regulator and battery and still OK. Run for a week and battery chargeing lovely. So to answer - 14.5 V at 5k isn't enough for round town chargeing. Garage now admitted they scuffed the coils when they swapped the cover plate, and thought the silicon was enough. Replaced it free of charge, and getting compensation for my expenses too. Anyone want to buy a spare voltage regulator or battery? Thansk for helping me through this one. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studly256 Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Sounds like your starter brushes are bad change the starter . starter's shorting out and draining the battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts