Noise Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 (edited) Ladies and Gents im reaching out in my time of need to ask if you would help me on a module on my NVQ which is all down to research and presenting reasoned arguments and evidence.The topic i have come up with for you all to discuss is the growing popularity in manufacture and development of electric powered motorcycles.Now im a big lover of proper fuel powered vehicles and it would be very hard for something to persuade me to sell up and switch to an all electric vehicle but the need to tone down the usage of fossil fuels is well and truly noted and these electric vehicles down have some promising potential.The two bikes to compare are the Harley Davidson Sportster and the Harley Davidson Live Wire.So, what are you views on electric vs fossil fueled motors? Edited November 6, 2015 by Noise
slice Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 Well Noise, if they could get the batteries to be easier to recharge, that is spend less time charging than riding, plus the distance covered per Watt of power compared to petrol, most electric vehicles are limited to short i.e. 150 mile journeys whereas I can do 250 plus on a tank full if I don't ride like a loon. And they tear great lumps out of the planet to make these batteries with the rare earths they use and the Chinese seem to be the only ones with the rare earths that are needed, unfortunately it seems we're going to be stuck with fossil fuels till someone invents a battery that can recharge quickly and give better mileage, power from these vehicles is not a problem, some are racing these things but they use power quickly and are just to limited to appeal to the majority of people I think. Hybrid is a good way to go but clumsy when you think about how they work. Just my thoughts on it you understand but most people I have talked to want petrol performance combined with Hydrogen fuel cell reliability. 2
Malleus Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 I do not know anything about the specific models mentioned. One thing that concerns me about electric vehicles is the lack of noise, especially when you are on a bike. I realise you could create a sound, but using power to create this seems like a waste. Especially when, as slice says, they are already rather limited on range/performance. Also are they really any more environmentally friendly, sure they do not use fossil fuels, but you can be fairly certain the machines they use to gather the materials are not electric and I believe production of these vehicles is more intensive than standard ones. (This paper has some stuff about the impact of lithium ion batteries) 1
Ttaskmaster Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 Electric - No noise so more likely to be SMIDSY'ed, takes ages to recharge, gets fuck-all mileage, kills the environment to produce.Hybrid: Half-and-half of the above.Hydrogen: Much of the above, really, especially on manufacture still killing the environment.Thorium is where it's really at!
Tommy xs Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 (edited) I've never rode an e-bike let alone a Harley. I think it would be fun for about 5 mins then I think I'd. Get bored with no gear change and no clutch and as mentioned already no sound, also until all our power can be generated from clean renewable energy I don't think you can call them green so what's the point of riding with zero emissions if the power station down the road is spewing clouds of toxins to charge it and as said already the power and resorsers it needs to produce the battery in the first place. And as Slice said the range and charge time still make the e-bike impractical. Maybe as Ttasky said the duel power as seen in many new hybred cars and also now F1 would be the way to go. Edited November 6, 2015 by Tommy xs 2
Noise Posted November 7, 2015 Author Posted November 7, 2015 Thanks guys keep the views coming as it all adds points, n points mean prizes (well an NVQ) I only used HD as a comparison as I knew they just brought out an e bike so used one of there best sellers to put against this live wire. But I must admit this live wire has a very nice sound. 1
slice Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 All very pretty Noise but I want to ROAR down the road not whine, I can get whining at home mate I don't want to take it with me. 4
Noise Posted November 7, 2015 Author Posted November 7, 2015 That is very true. So at the moment it seams like the general views are against e-bikes due to the damaging effects on the land to generate the batteries and the lack of range and charge times that they give.
Moderator drewpy Posted November 7, 2015 Moderator Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) not forgetting a weight penalty. I'm all for Ebike and cars as having built an electric go cart for the son, those things don't half have some torque.BUT, the limited range, expensive as an emerging technology and it doesn't appeal to the riders psyche.What we do on bikes is more than just the ride, its the experience of riding and maintenance of the machines we get attached to I could quote Maslows hierachy of needs here Edited November 7, 2015 by drewpy 1
slice Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) Just read this Noise seems the money men are already trying to kill the electric car before it even starts to take off, seems some folks can't resist being money grabbing bastards even when it comes to killing the golden goose. "Andrew Fenwick-Green, marketing secretary of the Electric Vehicle Drivers Association, drives a Nissan Leaf. He said: "A gallon of diesel for most eco-diesels will cost you £6.30 and get you around 60 miles. "A 30-minute rapid charge in my Nissan Leaf would give you a range of 64 miles. So we're paying an extra £1.20 more to get the same mileage. It's madness... if the rapid chargers go up to £7.50 we're going to kill the market at a stroke". Copied from BBC News Tech web site. Tesla have invented this by the way, now this is just freaky ! You just know someone is going to want one of these that vibrates !!!! Edited November 7, 2015 by slice 3
g1hsg Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 As others have said battery technology is not (yet) up to the job. There are some theoretical advantages to electric power - all the torque is available from practical zero rpm no need for gearing, possibilities of direct drive and higher energy conversion efficiencies. But it all falls flat on it's face given the current levels of energy density that cost effective batteries presently pack. Lithium-air batteries are at least 10 years away from commercial introduction even allowing for optimistic estimates. Fuel cells have the necessary energy densities but unless the Hydrogen they are fueled with is produced from renewable energy then they aren't remotely 'green'. I may be interested if they can make one that sounds like a V twin and has a driven eccentric cam to generate vibrations otherwise it would be as interesting to me as riding a tea trolley. Good luck with the NVQ 2
jimmy Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 I could quote Maslows hierachy of needs hereNever mind the management guff, what would Schrodingers cat do, presuming it ever gets out that box alive
Malleus Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 Thanks guys keep the views coming as it all adds points, n points mean prizes (well an NVQ) I only used HD as a comparison as I knew they just brought out an e bike so used one of there best sellers to put against this live wire. But I must admit this live wire has a very nice soundSounds like the washing is almost done
Moderator drewpy Posted November 7, 2015 Moderator Posted November 7, 2015 Never mind the management guff, what would Schrodingers cat do, presuming it ever gets out that box aliveit would and wouldn't at the same time, its alive and dead 1
g1hsg Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 it would and wouldn't at the same time, its alive and deadActually that's not at all what Schrodinger said. The cat is actually either dead or alive, whether or not it has been observed and he was using this thought experiment to highlight the limits of the 'Copenhagen interpretation’ of quantum mechanics, which states that a particle exists in all states at once until observed.
Moderator Cynic Posted November 7, 2015 Moderator Posted November 7, 2015 What I don't understand is why we don't have proper green hybrids, we have our tech limits, they are created by business who need/want to make money. We also have the red tape that visionaries of old like Triscothic or Ford didn't get restricted by.Why we don't have something like the prius but with a small dedicated generator. Say 200cc JUST generating for the batteries. No mechanical wheel connection. Then we have sensible range, the quiet and the eco while still being within our current tech limits. That could be built for a fuck sight less than the current cars. It would work with bikes like gold wings too, small generating unit powering motors, Yamaha had a 4wd Dakar bike with a hydraulic drive to the front that could be electrically pumped, even keep a gearbox to reduce the motor size and draw further.Slightly re boddied Nissan micra, basic micra cost 6k, so an electric motor and some battery tech and some bodywork creating a Leaf is hitting you for 30 odd k ( ffsake the leaf still uses bulbs in its tail lights!!). That's a lot of fuel, like 250000 miles worth of fuel. I will keep my 120000mile 7year old Mondeo thx. Don't forget my car is now in its second lifetime, I'm driving it beyond its design life and you will never convince me that crushing a perfectly good car to buy a new one on 'environmental grounds' is viable. My car may be a little dirtier than the latest cars but its hardly a disaster, comparing mine to a new one the difference is negligible, my engine is still current (with tweaks) in transits . Very different from comparing to the previous generations of cars. Something like Sierra to Mondeo for ex. I'm also saving the environmental cost of making another car. I know a green eco warrior still chugging around in an ancient VW Polo, he states that while this one is running he will keep it as he has saved the planet the cost of 7 or 8 cars for the cost of some emissions which are well below the amount creating its replacements would generate.I also think that cars should be limited like trucks, cap em at say 80mph,( Land Rovers are already capped at 88mph Doc ) no matter what they are with a permission embedded in the (now common ) on board sat nav that can tell when the car is on an autobahn or a race track. 2
jimmy Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 (edited) Actually that's not at all what Schrodinger said. The cat is actually either dead or alive, whether or not it has been observed and he was using this thought experiment to highlight the limits of the 'Copenhagen interpretation’ of quantum mechanics, which states that a particle exists in all states at once until observed.Yes but as you no doubt know, whilst he was trying to explain a theory or was it a hypothesis, ultimately he is only remembered for that damn cat being both dead and alive. This is the lot for some folk. Like that Civil War officer hero, who singlehandedly stormed a gatling gun post wiping all those damn yankees and saved his entire regiment, but all they remember him for is his spicy chicken.....God bless Colonel Sanders...or indeed that fella who first stepped on the moon but became famous for his Blues singing, Louis Armstrong it would and wouldn't at the same time, its alive and deadYou spin me right round baby right round, like a record baby, right round right round If you think we are picky, have a look here http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=5172.0 where they are debating whether Erwins dog got blown up or not Edited November 8, 2015 by jimmy
g1hsg Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Yes but as you no doubt know, whilst he was trying to explain a theory or was it a hypothesis, ultimately he is only remembered for that damn cat being both dead and alive. This is the lot for some folk. Sadly as he died in 1961 he didn't live long enough to see his 'misquoted cat' adorning T shirts the world over. I'd like to think that had he lived longer it would have annoyed him immensely and he could have spent his twilight years accosting strangers attempting to explain what he actually intended the cat to demonstrate.
jimmy Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Funny that because I see my wifes life 'apres moi' kinda like that....accosting strangers talking about cats. She already is a crazy cat lady, but I try to keep her in check
Ttaskmaster Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 Maybe as Ttasky said the duel power as seen in many new hybred cars and also now F1 would be the way to go. No no, I'm saying hybrids are still a waste. You either go all out or don't bother. Half-way is not good enough. All very pretty Noise but I want to ROAR down the road not whine, I can get whining at home mate I don't want to take it with me. I don't mind the noise if it's the whine of a jet turbine engine...!!
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