How NOT to Take a Corner

[feliks]

I learned the hard way today....don't touch the front brake while you're already turning. I took a last second left hand turn, was going a little too quick, hit the brake just slightly and lost control....wheel started wobbling and I was headed straight for some trees and a power pole. I didn't panic, kept the bike upright, and calmly road off...could have been much, MUCH worse. I will learn from this mistake!

I caught it on camera so you can either laugh at me, or be relieved I didn't plow into the trees and hurt myself (or my bike)! Next time, apart from planning my turns a little better, I'll lean more instead of braking, probably have a better outcome than this!

[fil77]

Your riding on the wrong side of the road. Thats what the trouble is.

[jimmy]

No harm done mate. We've all made mistakes in the past, some we got away with, some not so lucky

[slice]

You are one lucky SOB!! what a good job you don't have the same kerb stones we have in the UK you would now be in orbit while dodging trees and odd bits of metal. Plus of course you ARE driving on the wrong side of the road

[Campaman]

Don't take offence at this but from your other thread where you are popping wheelies and now this, maybe you should slow down a bit until you gain more experience.

Yes if you leaned the bike a bit more you may have got round, but you also run the risk of loosing it, it looked like you were just going to fast for that turn.

Happy riding.... And as you managed to come out of it ok....

[lallasro]

an aussie and a brit telling you you ride on the wrong side of the road... this is funny =))

you exit very good from this crap situation. anyway, i`m a noob in powered bikes but I have over 20 years MB experience on the mountain roads, bla bla, and I can tell you something... if you really need push the brake, NEVER use the front brake in a corner, use the rear brake.. you still lose the control and the back brake is not so powerful but you don`t need a powerful braking in a corner unless you have in front a obstacle. in most situation you enter in a corner just a bit to fast, so you don`t need a hard breaking. you can deal easier if you lose control because of rear brake + you can use this in your advantage to get in the right position, tacking safe the corner.

[drewpy]

As you have experienced, using the front on a corner straightens the bike up, useful if your about to hit a road object.

Rear brake will square off the corner but if used too hard, will slide then high side if the wheel grips suddenly.

Its a good learning curve if you survive your mistakes

I vividly remember taking a corner at 75 and there were grockles stood next to their parked car on the road, in a blind bend with their doors wide open admiring the "view". That was a bum clenching moment and I just used my rear brake to slow, abet with a 50ft slide and managed to square off the bike, accelerate and miss the car.

[Ttaskmaster]

As you have experienced, using the front on a corner straightens the bike up, useful if your about to hit a road object.

Rear brake will square off the corner but if used too hard, will slide then high side if the wheel grips suddenly.

Err... Isn't that the other way around?

Rear drags it upright, front causes a lowside slide which can highside if the rear re-grips?

Also - Remember you have a lot more engine braking than you think, too!!

My 650 Drag had so much of it, I simply rolled off and that was enough braking to panic a rider behind me.

[Katie1]

I learned the hard way today....don't touch the front brake while you're already turning. I took a last second left hand turn, was going a little too quick, hit the brake just slightly and lost control....wheel started wobbling and I was headed straight for some trees and a power pole. I didn't panic, kept the bike upright, and calmly road off...could have been much, MUCH worse. I will learn from this mistake!

I caught it on camera so you can either laugh at me, or be relieved I didn't plow into the trees and hurt myself (or my bike)! Next time, apart from planning my turns a little better, I'll lean more instead of braking, probably have a better outcome than this!

Yes, very glad you made it out okay, without harm to you or machine

Been there, done that and yes, did laugh a little bit

[dt502001]

First glad your ok.

you did so many things wrong 1st was you were going to fast for your comfort level 2nd you set the corrner up all wrong and failed to hit the apex 3rd you looked at the trees instead of looking where you wanted to go.

The number 1 rule I teach is don't ever look where you don't want to go,alwasy focus on where you want to be at the middle and end of the corrner.When i get the kids doing this they stop running off the coruse and crash way less.As soon as you focus on a coruse of dircetion you normaly end up there.

Even if you had leaned more and low sided at that speed you would have stoped befor hitting the trees,you got lucky the grass wasn't covered in wet leaves,or a normal curb and hit the trees that would have done way more dammage to yourself and the bike than a low side slide.

Keep in mind that this time of year the roads don't provide as much traction,your tires don't heat up as much wet leaves can be around every corrner.

As the other members suggested engine braking would have been enough to scrub off the speed,you should practice this beeing in a lower gear and running high revs provides more effect.

All's well that ends well,chalk this one up as leson learned.This is why I suggested a day at cayuga,it will give you the confidence to lean the bike over with good tires the FZ is capable of draging the pegs.

[feliks]

Thanks for the advice guys, will definitely take it to heart! Don't want to hurt myself.

Campaman - I hear ya, but don't get the wrong impression about me, I am fairly safe and take precautions for the most part. It's just that I only posted those videos because my regular driving isn't really that...interesting. No point in posting a video of me driving in a straight line, so while it may look like I'm reckless, you're just getting a very small view into my riding. I do appreciate the concern though, no one wants to get hurt out there!

DT- That's what happened, after I hit the brake, all I could see was a forest and a telephone pole coming right at me, I'll admit I panicked for a second but I said fuck it, can't stop, ride through it you can make it....looked at the road, kept the bike upright and rode off.... for sure got lucky, but I'm starting to learn my limitations now and it's all new to me! Just glad I didn't wreck it.

[obriens65]

 

Err... Isn't that the other way around?

Rear drags it upright, front causes a lowside slide which can highside if the rear re-grips?

 

Also - Remember you have a lot more engine braking than you think, too!!

My 650 Drag had so much of it, I simply rolled off and that was enough braking to panic a rider behind me.

It's my experience that Drewpy is right. Hitting the front brake in a corner stands the bike up. Can't say what the rear brake does, I rarely use it.

[feliks]

I can say from my experience (which is little) and the video, that hitting the front brake while turning stands the bike up as well.

[lallasro]

rear brake make your bike to lean so is changing the direction of the bike, in the same direction when you already lean, if you are tacking the corner to left, front brake will send you in right, rear brake in left direction. the problem with rear break is you can crush fast if your bike is heavy and you have poor reflexes. learning to control this can save your or others life. you can control this, release the brakes, and turn your handlebars in the opposite side. this will put your bike in the correct position... maybe a bit acceleration. I don`t know what is the opposite name for counterstering but this you must do.

in this case, front brake, release the front brake and counterstering will solve the problem, maybe a bit acceleration when you lean again to left. now, counterstering on grass can rapidly change the theory in a big bullshit.

I hope I use the correct words and you can understand what I mean.

also I learn in my mountain bike experience, the front brake can put you in 2 different situation. then you have a good grip, like a (tamac is the name?) road, is happening what you just happening. then the road is wet or dusty, you can have the surprise to see how you bike lean in the same direction you take the corner. don`t know if this is happening with a motorbike because a motorbike is heavy, not like a bicycle.

[Ttaskmaster]

Then why are we taught NOT to touch the front brake in corners during our training, then?

As I and most riders I know were taught:

• Handful of front brake - Weight transfers to the front, back steps towards outside of corner, inertia carries bike forward, weight on front creates a pivot point while gravity drags bike down = Lowside crash.
• Rear brake - Traction increases on rear, front lightens, rear drag makes front step towards inside of corner = bike stands upward.

Yes, you can use a *little* front brake in some corners (depending) but nowhere near as much as normal braking and it's not something you can just do without a feel or some experience.

From CBT: http://www.begin-motorcycling.co.uk/elc2.htm

If you must brake in a bend

* Avoid using the front brake. Rely on the rear brake and engine braking to slow you down. If you must use the front brake, be very gentle. There's a risk of the front tyre losing its grip and sliding sideways * Try to bring your motorcycle upright and brake normally ( provided you can do so safely )

[feliks]

ttask I'm not trying to argue... I'm not sure.... but when I hit the front brake mid-turn, the wheel wobbled and the bike stood up straight, and stopped turning... when I let off the brake I was able to turn again, so ...I don't know!

[Ttaskmaster]

Not arguing, just questioning a serious conflict of information on quite a serious matter.

Possibly depends on angle of lean.

I sometimes use a touch of front when leaning a little way over, usually when coming out of a corner.

The one time I hit the front when properly leant, I decked out and lowsided. This is the story I've heard from numerous riders, including some quite experienced ones.

Ordinarily I'd just go out and mess around to try these theories, but my new bike is perfect and I don't want to risk fucking it up. I'd never get a replacement!

[feliks]

Yes, please don't try this at home. Let's keep it to theory! lol

[rzresurection]

Funny this subject. I was just on another forum and came across a re-posted article from a well known motorcycle journalist. I'll copy it here below. Makes a lot of sense.

My opinion as far as 'not' using front brakes in a corner - that's ridiculous. Not grabbing a 'handful' of brakes mid corner - that makes sense.

Here's the re-post

nick is one of our forum members on another forum I am a member of, he shared the following and I thought the members here might benefit from it.

"If you have to stop in a corner, one of two things will happen. One, you will stand the bike up and ride it off the shoulder and into whatever is over there. Or two, you will lay the bike down and slide off the shoulder of the road. Braking is done before, or after a corner. The best thing to do before taking a corner is to grind the thought 'I'm going to turn this corner' into your mind."

Hiya FZ1 lovers.

I’ve stewed for two days about the above quote taken from another FZ1OA thread...and finally decided to launch this thread. In past years I would have just rolled my eyes and muttered, “Whatever”…but not anymore. I want to tell you that there are measureable, explainable, repeatable, do-able reasons that make great riders great. And brake usage is at the very tippity-top of these reasons. It’ll save your life, it’ll make you a champion. It will save and grow our sport.

I’ll ask this one favor: Would you open your mind to what I’m about to write, then go out and mess around with it?

To begin: Realize that great motorcycle riding is more subtle in its inputs than most of us imagine. I bet you are moving your hand too quickly with initial throttle and brakes. Moving your right foot too quickly with initial rear brake. The difference between a lap record and a highside is minute, almost-immeasureable differences in throttle and lean angle. The difference between hitting the Camaro in your lane and missing it by a foot is the little things a rider can do with speed control at lean angle. Brakes at lean angle. Brakes in a corner.

Yes, a rider can brake in a corner. Yes. For sure. Guaranteed. I promise. Happens all the time. I do it on every ride, track or street. Yes, a rider can stop in a corner. In fact, any student who rides with the Yamaha Champions Riding School will tell you it’s possible. Complete stop, mid-corner…no drama. Newbies and experts alike.

There are some interesting processes to this sport, mostly revolving around racing. But as I thought about this thread, putting numbers on each thought made more sense because explaining these concepts relies on busting some myths and refining your inputs. Some things must be ingrained…like #1 below.

1)You never, ever, never stab at the brakes. Understand a tire’s grip this way: Front grip is divided between lean angle points and brake points, rear grip is lean angle points and acceleration points, lean angle points and brake points. Realize that the tire will take a great load, but it won’t take a sudden load…and so you practice this smooth loading at every moment in/on every vehicle. If you stab the brakes (um...or throttle...) in your pickup, you berate yourself because you know that the stab, at lean angle on your motorcycle (and bicycle, btw), will be a crash.

2)Let’s examine tire grip. If you’re leaned over at 95% (95 points in my book Sport Riding Techniques and fastersafer.com) of the tires’ available grip, you still have 5% of that grip available for braking (or accelerating). But maybe you only have 3%!!! You find out because you always add braking “points” in a smooth, linear manner. As the front tire reaches its limit, it will squirm and warn you…if that limit is reached in a linear manner.

It’s the grabbing of 30 points that hurts anyone leaned over more than 70 points. If you ride slowly with no lean angle, you will begin to believe that aggressiveness and grabbing the front brake lever is okay…and it is…until you carry more lean angle (or it’s raining, or you’re on a dirt road or your tire’s cold…pick your excuse). Do you have a new rider in your life? Get them thinking of never, ever, never grabbing the brakes. Throttle too…

3)If you STAB the front brake at lean angle, one of two things will happen. If the grip is good, the fork will collapse and the bike will stand up and run wide. If the grip is not-so-good, the front tire will lock and slide. The italicized advice at the beginning was written by a rider who aggressively goes after the front brake lever. His bike always stands up or lowsides. He’s inputting brake force too aggressively, too quickly...he isn't smoothly loading the fork springs or loading the tire. He may not believe this, but the tire will handle the load he wants, but the load must be fed-in more smoothly…and his experience leads to written advice that will hurt/kill other riders. “Never touch the brakes at lean angle?” Wrong. “Never grab the brakes at lean angle?” Right!

But what about the racers on TV who lose the front in the braking zone? Pay attention to when they lose grip. If it’s immediately, it’s because they stabbed the brake at lean angle. If it’s late in the braking zone, it’s because they finally exceeded 100 points of grip deep in the braking zone…if you’re adding lean angle, you’ve got to be “trailing off” the brakes as the tire nears its limit.

4) Radius equals MPH. Realize that speed affects the bike’s radius at a given lean angle. If the corner is tighter than expected, continue to bring your speed down. What’s the best way to bring your speed down? Roll off the throttle and hope you slow down? Or roll off the throttle and squeeze on a little brake? Please don’t answer off the top of your head…answer after you’ve experimented in the real world.

Do this: Ride in a circle in a parking lot at a given lean angle. That’s your radius. Run a circle or two and then slowly sneak on more throttle at the same lean angle and watch what your radius does. Now ride in the circle again, and roll off the throttle…at the same lean angle. You are learning Radius equals MPH. You are learning what throttle and off-throttle does to your radius through steering geometry changes and speed changes. You are learning something on your own, rather than asking for advice on subjects that affect your health and life. (You will also learn why I get so upset when new riders are told to push on the inside bar and pick up the throttle if they get in the corner too fast. Exactly the opposite of what the best riders do. But don’t believe me…try it.)

Let me rant for a moment: Almost every bit of riding advice works when the pace is low and the grip is high. It’s when the corner tightens or the sleet falls or the lap record is within reach…then everything counts.

“Get all your braking done before the turn,” is good riding advice. But what if you don’t? What if the corner goes the other way and is tighter and there’s gravel? It’s then that you don’t need advice, you need riding technique. Theory goes out the window and if you don’t perform the exact action, you will be lying in the dirt, or worse. Know that these techniques are not only understandable, but do-able by you. Yes you! I’m motivated to motivate you due to what I’ve seen working at Freddie’s school and now the Champ school…

I’m telling you this: If you can smoothly, gently pick-up your front brake lever and load the tire, you can brake at any lean angle on and FZ1. Why? Because our footpegs drag before our tires lose grip when things are warm and dry. It might be only 3 points, but missing the bus bumper by a foot is still missing the bumper! If it’s raining, you simply take these same actions and reduce them…you can still mix lean angle and brake pressure, but with considerably less of each. Rainy and cold? Lower still, but still combine-able.

5)So you’re into a right-hand corner and you must stop your bike for whatever reason. You close the throttle and sneak on the brakes lightly, balancing lean angle points against brake points. As you slow down, your radius continues to tighten. You don’t want to run off the inside of the corner, so you take away lean angle. What can you do with the brakes when you take away lean angle? Yes! Squeeze more. Stay with it and you will stop your bike mid-corner completely upright. No drama. But don’t just believe me…go prove it to yourself.

6)Let’s examine the final sentence in the italicized quote. The best thing to do before taking a corner is to grind the thought "I'm going to turn this corner" into your mind.

No, that’s not the best thing. It’s not the worst thing and I’m all for positive thinking, but we all need to see the difference between riding advice and riding techniques. This advice works until you enter a corner truly beyond your mental, physical or mechanical limits. I would change this to: The best thing to do before taking a corner is to scan with your eyes, use your brakes until you’re happy with your speed and direction, sneak open your throttle to maintain your chosen speed and radius, don’t accelerate until you can see your exit and can take away lean angle.

7)Do you think I’m being over-dramatic by claiming this will save our sport? Are we crashing because we’re going too slowly in the corners or too fast? Yes, too fast. What component reduces speed? Brakes. What component calms your brain? Brakes. What component, when massaged skillfully, helps the bike turn? Brakes. If riders are being told that they can’t use the brakes at lean angle, you begin to see the reason for my drama level. When I have a new rider in my life, my third priority is to have them, “Turn into the corner with the brake-light on.”

I’ve said it before: This is the only bike forum I’m a member of. I like it, I like the peeps, I like the info, I love the bike. Could we begin to change the information we pass along regarding brakes and lean angle? Could we control our sport by actually controlling our motorcycles? If we don’t control our sport, someone else will try. Closed throttle, no brakes is “out of the controls”. Get out there and master the brakes.

Thanks, I feel better.

Nick Ienatsch

Yamaha Champions Riding School

Fastersafer.com

Jeff

'87 RZ 350

[rzresurection]

I can say from my experience (which is little) and the video, that hitting the front brake while turning stands the bike up as well.

In a corner:

The faster you take the corner, the more you have to lean. Add brakes, you slow down. You slow down, less you need to lean = bike stands up.

You never see a GP racer straight up in a corner unless he's exiting the track - oops.

Jeff

'87 RZ 350