cbt is inadequate

[Ttaskmaster]

Most bike accidents happen within the first two months of riding.

Nope - First six years, I believe. Other sources have said either three or eight.

Myself, it was actually the first few months.

However, all three were on the 125 at low speeds (40 and below).

All three I was doing something wrong. Two of them I was doing something stupid.

One was just braking on diesel.

The other two were my fault - First time out on a bike after completing CBT, riding too fast into a corner and panicking, hitting front brake. Other one was me pissed off with my girlfriend (now ex) and not concentrating, not looking where I was going while U-Turning and ended up hitting the curb.

As for learning on a 50cc/125cc - I felt SO much safer when I got a more powerful bike.

I still think the 125 was essential as you need to plan ahead a lot more.

However, I feel I would have benefited from a 3-day long CBT or somesuch.

There's a lot to take in, especially for a first-time road user and very little time to learn everything.

sorry for the rant but im geting anoyed and the way the goverment seems to alow some right Twats on the road that dont have a clue what they are doing......

Government doesn't allow them.

They're twats regardless.

Many of them are in cars, actually!!

Only those who cannot afford cars are on peds.

i hope when you say licences you also include car drivers, bus drivers , hgv drivers as well, as young scooter riders are not the only idiots on the road.

HGV and Bus drivers already do have to re-test every few years, I believe.

TBH, CBT is OK. It does what it's supposed to do.

It should be more comprehensive if people are going to ride afterward, though.

Similar training needs to be applied to cars as well.

[oldtimer]

Yes, it's great. Roll up and within the hour you are riding in France. The terminal is straight off the motorway too. If you look at the website there are often good deals - I go an email a couple of weeks back, offering £22 return for WSB weekends. There are usually a few bikes. You just have to watch the bike as the train rumbbles along, they don't tie them down, but it depends on your bike and the lean on the sidestand I guess, mine sits quite upright so it's not as stable - but then again it's only 30 minutes of travel, so no hardship realy.

If you time it right you can avoid that nasty M25 traffic.....

I've used the Portsmouth/Bilbao route but the Bay of Biscay can be rough, I'd rather take the Chunnel and ride through France, the Newcastle/IJmuden routes are OK, but again if you get the wrong weather your in it for a while !!

thanks for that will check it out ,have looked on the map and it works out well for me as my first port of call from calais is bunde in germany 354ml then after a couple of days with a mate down to the black forest for a few days before going to switzerland to visit relatives and then on to montpellier and a slow ride back through the gorges de tarn over the new bridge in millau stopping in st affrique with another mate then home.

[Gas up - Let's Go!]

HGV and Bus drivers already do have to re-test every few years, I believe.

Not quite, it is being brough in, but it's still going to be a long time before it's any use. And the recertification is classroom based, not an assesed driver - or so the DSA information lead me to belive.

Probably just easier to have Twats euthanased.........

[Ttaskmaster]

Probably just easier to have Twats euthanased.........

I tried that, but they sent me down for a ten stretch in chokey...

[AndyDtr08]

What scare's the bejeasus out of me is a 16yr old can drive a Tractor on the road......

That doesnt scare me. My friends been on the road driving tractors since he was 16, and i consider him to be a good driver. Obviously there are liekly to be exceptions, but id guess that 99% of the people driving tractors on the road are farmers or agriculture students, so they are driving them as a job and not going sideways round roundabouts to show off to their mates. Personally im more scared of being crashed into by 16 year old with neon lights flashing everywhere, than someone whos passed a test to drive an agricultural machine.

[add76]

I did a DAS cousre in march this year (passed first time yeah ) honestly never been on a bike before that. The instruction i got was excellent, CBT was just as good, as a car driver, i do remember thinking holy f*** there is no one else to give it clutch or brake if i am being stupid, when we went out on the 2 hour road part. The training was adequate for actuall controls on the bike. looking back perhaps it should be split in to a two day course. but thats all retrospective as i had road experience. I think that worked in my own favour.. but I did get excellent teacher.

[mervin]

What scare's the bejeasus out of me is a 16yr old can drive a Tractor on the road......

another ancient law that needs sorting, that was fine when the tractors were little fergys etc only capable of 15 mph, but now with fastracs etc the things are capable of 50 mph and huge trailers they should need HGV,s to drive em i reckon, i was driving the big county 4wd,s traveling at 25 mph loaded too 14 tonnes at 18 years old on a car licnece and could legally have done that on mt own with L plates, but a 10 ton truck i could not drive unless i had a HGV stupid, and makes a mockery of the licnece system

Merv

[Gas up - Let's Go!]

That doesnt scare me. My friends been on the road driving tractors since he was 16, and i consider him to be a good driver.

I'm sorry, but,,,,

There is no way a 16Yr old can ever be considered a good driver - ever, no matter what. Skilled maybe yes, but good no.

To be considered a good driver you need experience (it is learning from experience that is one of the key points in making a good driver) at 16 you have no experience at all, so a crutial part of the equation is missing.

I live in one of the most rural places in England, and to be fair, balanced and honest 9 out of 10 agricultural drivers have no respect for other road users. When was the last time you saw a tractor pull into a layby to let the queue of cars behind past ? How often do you see a light board on a trailer, and if you do how often does it work ? How often does the flashing hazard ligh actually work ? How often have you come up behind a tractor and stuggled to see the mirrors past the dangerously overloaded trailer, how many times have you come round a corner to find the road 1/2 inch deep in mud from the field that was plughed a week ago? I could go on al day but the key point is all about observation and information TUG, Take, Use and Give ; they never ever give information.

Tractors are very dangerous, and yet they let underqualified people loose on them. Crazy!

[bulldog25]

hi, i live just outside newcastle,

and i know of a training school that would only give you a pass if he felt that you where ok on the bike,

if he didnt fink you where 0k or you didnt fink you where ok,

he would ask you to come back the next day for more training untill you felt ok, at no extra charge!

if you still feel a bit iffy about your riding skills give him a ring he will probs have a look at you,

i dont think i am alowed to say the name of the riding school, but, if you have a yellow pages and you look at motorbike schools in the washington area (there is only one by the way) you might hit lucky,

better safe then sorry!!!!!!

good luck with the bike

[AndyDtr08]

I'm sorry, but,,,,

There is no way a 16Yr old can ever be considered a good driver - ever, no matter what. Skilled maybe yes, but good no.

To be considered a good driver you need experience (it is learning from experience that is one of the key points in making a good driver) at 16 you have no experience at all, so a crutial part of the equation is missing.

I live in one of the most rural places in England, and to be fair, balanced and honest 9 out of 10 agricultural drivers have no respect for other road users. When was the last time you saw a tractor pull into a layby to let the queue of cars behind past ? How often do you see a light board on a trailer, and if you do how often does it work ? How often does the flashing hazard ligh actually work ? How often have you come up behind a tractor and stuggled to see the mirrors past the dangerously overloaded trailer, how many times have you come round a corner to find the road 1/2 inch deep in mud from the field that was plughed a week ago? I could go on al day but the key point is all about observation and information TUG, Take, Use and Give ; they never ever give information.

Tractors are very dangerous, and yet they let underqualified people loose on them. Crazy!

You've obviously had some bad experiences then. I said i consider him to be a good driver, that being in the present tense it goes to say that im talking about his driving skills now. The experience from this has come from being on the road in a tractor since he was 16, driving tractors, land rovers, cars on farm land since he was 13-14, and driving a car since his 17th birthday. If you live in a particularly rural area then there are going to be more tractor drivers and so you are going to remember more bad experiences of farmers. Personally my friend does pull over to let cars past, if it is safe to do so, or f he can afford to. You have to remember they are driving it for a job, so if they spend they're time pulling over to let people get home from work, they are gonna lose time and therefore money.

Besides, courtesy on the road has nothing to do with being a good, or skilled driver. Thats to do with a persons attitude so i dont think its fair to judge people on whether they let people out at a junction etc to whether they are safe drivers, which is what this thread is all about.

[Gas up - Let's Go!]

Besides, courtesy on the road has nothing to do with being a good, or skilled driver. Thats to do with a persons attitude so i dont think its fair to judge people on whether they let people out at a junction etc to whether they are safe drivers, which is what this thread is all about.

Attitude has everything to do with being a good driver it is the cornerstone of the IAM, ROSPA and the Police , Courtesy projects a non-agressive persona, and can difuse a situation before it has time to begin, this is what being a good driver/rider is all about, tied in with Experience, Observation, Planning, Skill and the application of all of these together makes a good driver / rider. When a lack of courtesy is evident, it begins to cause stress and that's when people start to make bad judgment calls and this will lead to accidents. Being a good driver / rider isn't about being right, it's about treating the road in a manner that makes it safer for you and everyone else (in that order). Anyone who has undergone any form of further/advanced training will understand this.

If the CBT, or any other 1st time training package started with attitude then we'd be heading the right way. It is considered basic training (i.e. bike control) , but the wrong attitude to the road should be sufficient to remove anyone's right to ride / drive on the public roads. If everyones attitude was right, bad driving / riding wouldn't cause an issue, Oh christ, I've got my rose specs on again......

[AndyDtr08]

Attitude has everything to do with being a good driver it is the cornerstone of the IAM, ROSPA and the Police , Courtesy projects a non-agressive persona, and can difuse a situation before it has time to begin, this is what being a good driver/rider is all about, tied in with Experience, Observation, Planning, Skill and the application of all of these together makes a good driver / rider. When a lack of courtesy is evident, it begins to cause stress and that's when people start to make bad judgment calls and this will lead to accidents. Being a good driver / rider isn't about being right, it's about treating the road in a manner that makes it safer for you and everyone else (in that order). Anyone who has undergone any form of further/advanced training will understand this.

If the CBT, or any other 1st time training package started with attitude then we'd be heading the right way. It is considered basic training (i.e. bike control) , but the wrong attitude to the road should be sufficient to remove anyone's right to ride / drive on the public roads. If everyones attitude was right, bad driving / riding wouldn't cause an issue, Oh christ, I've got my rose specs on again......

That reminded me greatly of the "Good for Britain" speech Del Boy fumbled out when rodney asked how 'stealing from british rail could be good for britain'.

Ofcourse you can link together all that to make it look like people who dont let everyone out at junctions, to be a bad driver because it causes stress, but it doesnt change the fact that you can be a complete arsehole when it comes to your attitude and still be a good driver. If i choose to not let drivers pass me when i doing 25mph in a 30 and they want to do 40, that doesnt make me a "bad" driver, it just makes me slightly selfish.

I know you dont just mean this when u talk about respect for road users, but you basing your opinion on the sterotypical country farmer who are pissed off because of the shit money they get for all their hardwork whilst supermarkets wreak in all the dough (little rant in there ). My point is that for a CBT you need 6-8 hours of training before your allowed on the road. To drive a tractor on the road you need to pass a test similar to a car test, and i dont think there is much dispute about the car test, what a joke that is with the 2 and 10 o clock etc etc, its a performance rather than a test of ability....

And as i said before, you dont get farmers buying tractors that cost inane amount of monies so that they can drive around in gangs like lunatics, or ride on the pavement narrowly missing pedestrians. They use them for work, they are a tool rather than a toy, so if you want to use your attitude and respect point, there you have it. Also at 16 i highly doubt a training farmer would have access to a JCB Fastrac which does 70kmh, the tractors ive driven at my friends feild and the ones ive seen him in do 30mph at a push, as they are made for working and pulling trailers, not for impressing 14 year old girls, by wheelspinning or doing 50mph.

[Cov_AL]

hi, i live just outside newcastle,

and i know of a training school that would only give you a pass if he felt that you where ok on the bike,

if he didnt fink you where 0k or you didnt fink you where ok,

he would ask you to come back the next day for more training untill you felt ok, at no extra charge!

if you still feel a bit iffy about your riding skills give him a ring he will probs have a look at you,

i dont think i am alowed to say the name of the riding school, but, if you have a yellow pages and you look at motorbike schools in the washington area (there is only one by the way) you might hit lucky,

better safe then sorry!!!!!!

good luck with the bike

What?

[Gas up - Let's Go!]

If i choose to not let drivers pass me when i doing 25mph in a 30 and they want to do 40, that doesnt make me a "bad" driver, it just makes me slightly selfish.

If you make that same statement to am IAM observer, he will tell you that for that reason alone, you are a bad driver. And if you are unfortunate to do that to an unmarked Police car you are going to find yourself in front of the local Magistrate facing a dangerous driving charge or obstructing a Police Officer in the course of his duty. If you were to do it in front of some riders I've met (in the past) you are very likely to have an altercation. Being right does not make you good or safe.

I've had my rant about farmers the 'Good for Britian' speach (I do kinda like that) was all about attitude to driving

Attitude is everything, if it's not right you will never make a good (read safe) driver or rider. no matter how much you try to argue the case.

[AndyDtr08]

If you make that same statement to am IAM observer, he will tell you that for that reason alone, you are a bad driver. And if you are unfortunate to do that to an unmarked Police car you are going to find yourself in front of the local Magistrate facing a dangerous driving charge or obstructing a Police Officer in the course of his duty. If you were to do it in front of some riders I've met (in the past) you are very likely to have an altercation. Being right does not make you good or safe.

I've had my rant about farmers the 'Good for Britian' speach (I do kinda like that) was all about attitude to driving

Attitude is everything, if it's not right you will never make a good (read safe) driver or rider. no matter how much you try to argue the case.

We could do this all day, your just repeating yourself. Police cars exceed the speed limit, so if you were to obstruct one it wouldnt matter what speed your were doing, so long as it were on an emergency call. btw i like the way you say "do that to" as if tractor drivers are deliberately driving at 20mph to spite you! just to point out, 50cc bikes, which are supposed to be restricted to 30mph, are allowed to ride on road that use national speed limit, and if you go by the CBT, which ( again) is the point of the discussion, you should maintain your road position in the centre of your lane. Its up to other road users to overtake in a safe place if they wish to reach the speed "limit". Its not the speed that you must drive/ride at on the road, it is a top limit that is safe for the surround enviroment. Ive riden on single lane national speed limit roads with police cars behind me many a time when i was on my suzuki ts50x, that only did 30mph and ive never been pulled over and told im driving too slow. Fair enough if your crawling at 10-15mph when you can easily drive faster, it would then be acceptable for the police to have words.

How often are tractors pulled over for driving to slow? Not often, because they are doing nothing wrong. I'll say again, farmers are driving their machines as a job, if you lack the patience, confidence or riding skill to be able to wait for a safe overtaking spot and make the manouvre then thats your problem i say. And if it causes you or these 'riders' you mention to have an 'altercation' then im sure the farmer in question would be very happy to "debate" it

Attitude really isnt everything, a good road user drives in a manor that never causes another motorist to have to react to your driving, anyway, i dont drive tractors so i dont know why im debating this, i just enjoy it too much haha, each to their own i guess......

[bulldog25]

What?

there is a place in washington just out side of newcastle where he lives,

that will teach him advanced cbt if he is feeling unsafe at riding still to help him out,,

unlike most places that just give you a cbt and say get on with it...

didnt think that was that hard to understand!!!!!!

[s1h]

To the guy saying he started his at 10 and was done by 12.30 then the fault is with the training school. A 2 hour road ride is compulsory, so was everything else done in half an hour? The checking of the bikes, on and off the stand, controls, round cones, emergency stop.

[s1h]

And to the original poster, if you didn't think you were safe enough or still had reservations why did you not go back and have some extra lessons or something.

[Gas up - Let's Go!]

i dont drive tractors so i dont know why im debating this,

Me neither, I stopped discussing them some posts ago.

I was talking about your attitude - it's wrong and from what you say you wouldn't pass and Advanced test, ergo you can never be a 'good' driver.

You really should read a post, think about what is said and then come up with an argument.

BTW, my riding is fine, I have the right attitude to other road users. I suggest you get yourself on a BikeSafe course and maybe learn something before spouting off crap.

[AndyDtr08]

Me neither, I stopped discussing them some posts ago.

I was talking about your attitude - it's wrong and from what you say you wouldn't pass and Advanced test, ergo you can never be a 'good' driver.

You really should read a post, think about what is said and then come up with an argument.

BTW, my riding is fine, I have the right attitude to other road users. I suggest you get yourself on a BikeSafe course and maybe learn something before spouting off crap.

Oh, are we still on this? Haha yeah i will never be a good driver because i have "the wrong attitude" in the opinion of someone who is basing their opinion of me on a few forum posts about a friend who drives a tractor! Im sorry Derren Brown i didnt realise i was be observed by a top shrink as to how safe i am on the public roads!

Looks like ive really hit a nerve here. Maybe you should sit down for a minute and dont even think about driving angry as your anger might cause you to be unpleasant to other road users. You really do have a chip on your shoulder about this though don't you. I mean did someone once tell you that you were a bad driver, or perhaps you had " attitude problems" during childhood and are still trying to repress them? It really isnt a big a deal as your making it out to be. I AM a good rider. My friend IS a good driver! He WILL continues to drive on the roads at whatever speed is safe to carry the loads he is pulling! And whats more he WILL look forward to encountering these short tempered impatiant thugs whom you refer to during an altercation!

Ive been riding on the road since my 16th birthday, only on a CBT, which all the things i learnt during the day i had already practisecd numerous times under the supervision of my Father ( A police trained motorcycle surveilance officer, whom also instructed at an advanced level for numerous years). My 2nd CBT took 1 hour 30minutes. Sine my 16th birthday i have never had an accident, never dropped my bike, never had any form of road rage with any other driver/ride. I do not drive, so it is my only mode of transport. Ive ridden to cornwall on my 125cc DT last year ( a 10 hour trip) and to the isle of wight a number of times. Please explain how a bad rider with a poor attitude can achieve this, especially on a CBT (which IS inadequate )!

Ill await eagerly for your response, i just hope i dont crash my computer in the mean time as i might have the WRong attitude for that aswell! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKK!!!

Andy