Why do yall put pipes on your plastic bikes?

[sumncguy]

WHoa guys and gals !!!

As I mentioned in some other posts, Im coming from 06 Sporty 883 Standard to the Vstar 1300 Touring.

I can agree with the cost. Harley is more expensive no matter whether you look at sales, service, accessories or apparel.

That is probably the main reason I shopped other manufacturers. The second is that the maintenance and preferred customer package they sold was not exactly as the sales pitch claimed.

As for the bikes reliability. This was also an area of concern. The stage one was for the most part mandatory to correct a spitting and sputtering carb, I had to have the voltage regulator replaced at least 4 times and had intermittent engine and electrical idiot lights and the spedo sensor went leaving me stuck on the side of the road. This incident showed service issues. I was told that the spedo sensor "wasnt in the country" I figured Id call around to see if I could find one. First call was a hit. The stealer outright lied.

Actually the people of Harley are pretty friendly and I have met people from all walks of life low, middle and upper class. The social environment and people are great. If one dealer doesn't have anything going on this weekend, another local dealer does.

Ok so thats the story with the Harley ..

Its true that the cost of the 1300 T was alot lower compared to the Harley equivalent, the service contract, gap, maintenance plan and extended servcie plan were cheaper. Although the preferred customer Harley plan covered maintenaced form the handle bars to the rubber and rims, yammys dont cover "wearables." I had to push HD for the tires but I got them.

So .. the yammys reliability (so far). Ive owned the bike since 10/3 and have 3k on it. There are issues. The clunk, the clutch and the throttle all have issues common to many 1300s. Only the throttle has been reported to the dealer and the "stickiness" was adjusted out a bit. Other issues popped up since the last visit. Ill let you know how it goes. A few things I can say are .. the battery cover isnt contantly falling off and so far I dont need to spend a grand on stage one. I bought engine guards, Luggage rack, Side bag rails and racs for 633 bucks Yammy OEM. Harleys engine guards cost me over 3 bills alone. At least for the first service, the bike went in in the morning, I picked it up the same afternoon. While things look good right now, I cant say that the bike is trouble free.

Yammys people and culture - Theres a Harley comradry that I haven't yet experienced in the metric world. I registered at 3 boards all of which are extremely quiet. Ive had weekends free where I could ride and couldn't find a ride, run, rally or show. I do realize that late fall and winter are always quiet ..but the Harley dealers still have things going on.

http://rayprice.com/raypricecgi/eventcalen...ventCalendar.pl for example. I have joined the Starriders group so we'll see.

I can make the same comparisons to the Chevy, Ford and Dodge pickups Ive owned. Point is one manufacturer isnt any better or worse then the other. The all have problems.

It just so happens that assholes who start threads like this have a sole purpose of starting crap, hate and discontent. When the fact is who cares what you ride. We are all brothers and sisters who have a common yearning for that wind in our face and the vibrating rumble under our feet.

As for the original thread starter .. Shut up man !

[Roger Irrelevant]

<snip>

I can make the same comparisons to the Chevy, Ford and Dodge pickups Ive owned. Point is one manufacturer isnt any better or worse then the other. The all have problems.

err... look at the 3 manufacturers you've just quoted there & (as they say) 'do the math'

It just so happens that assholes who start threads like this have a sole purpose of starting crap, hate and discontent. When the fact is who cares what you ride. We are all brothers and sisters who have a common yearning for that wind in our face and the vibrating rumble under our feet.

As for the original thread starter .. Shut up man !

Absolutely correct & I agree with every word. This thread amused me, so I responded. It was a red rag to a bull i'm afraid. As long as it's all said/meant in a lighthearted manner then i don't see the problem. Certainly people can take the p*ss out of me, or my country, or my heritage all they like. I may not agree with their argument, but i will still laugh if it's well put together.

And just for the record, I LOVE pushrod V8s. And ZZ Top. So there

[Aquila]

Now Extreme ,.....that was a good retort!!!!!

You city-slickin sissy boy!

At the age of 50 I am returning to biking after 25 years. I like the cruiser configuration, I want to survive beyond my first 20 minutes on two wheels and, in view of my government's appalling taxation of my income, I need to have a cheap, reliable, economical machine. At a later date, when my confidence has built up again, I will go for a larger bike - probably an XVS650.

If money was no object, whilst I could think of tooling around on a Harley, a Buell, an Ironhorse or a Saxon, I would not do so as they are icons rather than real-world machines. My choice would be a 1700 Star or a Triumph Rocket III - as exotic as a Lamborghini, but as practical as a Nissan in so much as they are desperately reliable and cheap to maintain. A Harley is good to look at, but a Yamaha is great to own. Simple as.

Verbal aggression is not big and is not clever. If you wish to start a debate as to the shortcomings of Yamahas against your preferred brand, please feel free to do so. Initiating this by way of direct verbal assault could leave you standing alone, ranting at nothing and looking like the cunt you possibly are...

[Aquila]

Seemingly, Zoomsplat1982 has zoomed and, indeed, splatted. What a bloody shame, I was looking forward to engaging in battle with such a mental giant...

[mad bout donutz]

Sorry but I dont have a pick-up or a trailer so I will ride mine to where I go

:

[ozzyfzr]

"Zoomsplat" best describes a Harley!!!!!!!!!!!! Zoom to corner then Splat into the wall!

[snowymountainsmick]

I learnt to ride on a 42 Harley whilst in the Army as a teenager. I have a bit of a spot sopt for them and the new ones are a hell of a ride (not enough to make me buy one though).

What I don't like about Harleys is the fact that the bike is the limiting factor in cornering, not me . I'm also not real keen on the sit back riding position, comfy as all get out for awhile, but you act as a windsock and your lower back takes a pounding. They also generally do not look 'balanced' to me, the styling is wrong on most models as far as I'm concerned. The Road Kings sorta almost make it, but not quite, The Heritage Softail is OK, but must have a screen to balance it's old harley look and my fav is one or two of the Dynas, which funnily enough are the cheaper (not cheap) models. The 21" wheels don't do it for me and some of the Sportsters look cool (but are slow). The Fat Boys look OK, but that silly biggggggggggg chrome headlight / front fork cover is the pits as are those fingernail eyebrows, ). I will probably buy a comfortable cruiser/tourer style bike when I get older, but probably by then I won't be able to ride (I will be 60 in a few weeks).

I love the no fuss of the japs, pull out the choke, turn the key, press the button, ride away. Everything is smooth, easy and as quick as you want it. You can have blinding speed combined with mega smooth low down riding in traffic. Roaring through a corner on a country road without worrying about parts scraping and digging in and being able to flick the bike from side to side easily and trickle along at 40kph in a muddy construction zone and then not have the bike sideways as you smoothly accelerate is nice.

As to adding bits to plastic bikes, I have a full Akropovic system on my ZRX1200R because it was on it when I bought it, but it is so pretty and sounds so good, I would have bought the system myself as soon as I saw and heard it. I have a Staintune system on my BMW R80ST for the same reason, but my TT600R is bog stock. As all of the running gear on this bike is state of the art Euro stuff, it may get an exhaust system, but it's early days yet, it sounds pretty healthy anyway and one of the uses for this bike is sneaking along dirt roads looking for game when hunting, so quiet is good). It will probably stay stock apart from improved footpegs, shifters, etc to accommodate my large feet and impressive weight, compliments of being a 6'3" big stocky guy with a bit of cuddle thrown in.

But, to each his own.

Mick.

PS, My fav big 4cyl jap bike game was at the lights, move off without seeming to notice the Harley rider beside you, stay a few feet in front of him as he struggles to get in front, when he starts to run out of steam, accelerate away smoothly and emphatically, thats priceless.

Chucking a smooth, tight feet up U Turn in front of a struggling Harley or nose down front, mega fat rear tyred sporty bike and smoothly riding away was also fun.

[Kurnai]

Message for the Original Poster:

Scientests have managed to calculated that the average Harley Riders dick is 3.7 inches long (When Hard)

BUT ..... they have run into a problem with the rest of the study, ..

How much does a Cunt weighs ..

So, could you hop on the scales and get back to us !!!!

[7omly]

I've been riding bikes since I was 17 (I'm now 48) and my riding history is as follows:

Vespa P200E -motorbikers laughed at me

CZ250 - everyone laughed at me

Honda CB400N Superdream - Kawasaki riders laughed at me

Suzuki GS1000E with a stage 2 race tuned motor - I laughed at everyone

Honda C90 - I tried to hide from and ignore everyone

Honda CB250N Superdream - Everyone told me I was trying to recapture my youth

Honda CX500 Eurosport - my wife said I was trying to recapture my youth

CZ350 - I was derided by every bike under 30

Jawa 350 - as above

Honda CB500 - everyone over 40 loved it, everyone under 40 thought it was shit

I destroyed the Honda in a spectacular crash that has left me recouperating for five weeks.

I am collecting a Yamaha XJ600S Diversion on monday and doubtless some self opinionated tw~t will slag it and me off because it is a: Japanese, b: too old, c: too slow and so on.

My point is that the world of motorcycling is huge and we all have our own likes and dislikes.

Like and tell others, dislike and try to be polite.

One mans meat is another mans poison

LIVE AND LET LIVE

Stay safe and all the best

Tom

[Peabody]

I agree HD's suck, but to the delusional Brit who thinks America is living in the past, Your the dumb asses with the "queen." What backwards country still has royalty? Oh, and by the way, England hasn't been a world leader since we were riding horses for transportation. Also, I work at a biotech company that is the world leader in allograft sterilization and production. The work I do is far from lazy (60 hour work weeks). How many hours do you brits work in a week again? This isn't to all Brits, just the ignorant ones who think their country still matters.

Just had to vent my Scot-Irish side.

And to the idiot talking about "plastic bikes", check your specs again. My V Star 1300 is STEEL. Steel tank, fenders, etc.

[bajwin]

I wondered why most people rip the shit out of Harley riders, now I can see why. Arrogent bastards .

"ArrogAnt"

[Peabody]

Sumncguy,

Your right about the culture/brand loyalty, but I do notice that the Kaw riders here in Florida are very loyal to their brand. I looked at the Star riders group once, but the bylaws and events seemed to remove all the fun parts of riding. Going to the local watering hole, get a cold beer (to the Europeans on this thread, it's 90 degrees here, thats why the beer is near freezing) and have a good time. The info packet I got listed benefit breakfasts, family gatherings and a no alcohol policy. I don't believe in getting sauced and riding, but a beer or two (since American beer is weak and tasteless) shouldn't be a problem, and riding is why I bought the bike. Any members / riders here in FL?

Also, a friend of mine nailed a trailer pulling a HD to Daytona yesterday. The rider was on a HD FXR and couldn't avoid the trailer that pulled out in front of him. I've never ridden a Harley down the highway, so I don't know how the handle evasive maneuvering. If they're anything like my 1300, it shouldn't have been a problem, but we don't know if he will survive.

Anyone remember when Bike week was for bikes, not Harley's on trailers?

[Roger Irrelevant]

I agree HD's suck, but to the delusional Brit who thinks America is living in the past, Your the dumb asses with the "queen." What backwards country still has royalty? Oh, and by the way, England hasn't been a world leader since we were riding horses for transportation. Also, I work at a biotech company that is the world leader in allograft sterilization and production. The work I do is far from lazy (60 hour work weeks). How many hours do you brits work in a week again? This isn't to all Brits, just the ignorant ones who think their country still matters.

Just had to vent my Scot-Irish side.

And to the idiot talking about "plastic bikes", check your specs again. My V Star 1300 is STEEL. Steel tank, fenders, etc.

aah... a bite... excellent... let's have a look then shall we?

I agree HD's suck, but to the delusional Brit who thinks America is living in the past, Your the dumb asses with the "queen." What backwards country still has royalty?

hahaha you're not serious here surely... every fool knows the royal family in this country have no political power and serve one purpose only. they are 'figureheads' for the tourist industry. Put another way, they exist so that we can rob you Americans of your 'hard earned' (see below) practically worthless dollars, as you head over here in your tens of thousands each year getting all dewy-eyed over the fact that our nation has a heritage and history and tradition of more than (lets be generous) 300 years. Anyway... I'd suggest no American is in any position tocriticise the leadership of any nation on earth, *cough*George W Bush*cough*. Next.

Oh, and by the way, England hasn't been a world leader since we were riding horses for transportation.

Hmm... I think you'll find riding horses was something the Americans really did more than anyone... Look back in history... You don't have much so it won't take long... What came after horses... railways? Who invented them? Yep, a Brit. What else... Cars? Internal combustion engines? French or German, I think you'll find...

As for being world leaders, I think you'll find we led the world in empire and economy pretty much right up to the beginning of the 20th century (you could argue it was the 1st World War which changed that). Oh, and while we're on it, we led the world in terms of the womens movement and civil rights too... Look at Americas record on feminism & slavery then come back to me. The answer will still be kiss my arse.

Also, I work at a biotech company that is the world leader in allograft sterilization and production.

Well, I work on granular crystalline morphed parallel processed memory technology applying the principles of McArthur's bassoon. Any twat can spout jargon. It proves nothing.

The work I do is far from lazy (60 hour work weeks). How many hours do you brits work in a week again?

Actually, a typical working day for me begins at 5am & ends at 11pm. That's a typical day... ie a normal day... ie I do that 5 days a week. I'll leave you to add up how many hours a week that is, I simply can't be arsed. Look at the facts. The U.K. is known to be the hardest working nation on earth. Scant reward we get for it too, but thats another argument...

This isn't to all Brits, just the ignorant ones who think their country still matters.

Now there's a comment that only an American would make. Take the blinkers off, my friend. Look beyond your own shores (I know, it's a scary concept, but there are other people and countries out there believe it or not). Ask the rest of the world what they think. They will tell you that the U.K. are an incredibly important nation on the world stage. Not only do we lead the way in Europe (along with a few other nations), but we have a truly multicultural integrated society (not without it's problems) but we lead by example and bridge the gap between the primarily muslim nations of the middle east and the arrogant, ignorant, insular United States. Most people would argue the U.S. has way too much free reign to interfere in global affairs, but the fact is the UK are the only nation who hold influence with both the U.S. and with the rest of the world. If you think that means we don't matter, then you truly are as ignorant as your post makes you sound.

[Peabody]

Irrelevant, your name is apparently quite fitting.

First, very few Americans bother to visit Britain. "Tens of thousands"? I'd like to see that statistic. The only vacation spots worth mentioning are in Scotland. America has far more history than 300 years. Hell, St. Augustine Florida dates back to the 16th century and that doesn't even include Native American History. And while your discussing leadership, at least we're smart enough to put a limit on how long an idiot like George W. can sit in office. Unlike your fat queen.

British heritage? Let's see, your country had slaves before the U.S., to be more specific, your own people were slaves to your kings and landowners. How civilized is that? Your country was also one of the last to utilize eating utensils. Human rights? You do realize why America was formed? We were free (well, most of us) when your country still had debtor's prison, no freedom of religion and subjugation to government. As for cars and trains, until the United States put engineering know-how into cars and trains they were only oddities with very little functional value. America invented the largest, most powerful locomotives until the 1940's. The car (which we made into a viable, affordable mode of transportation) made rail a less feasible means of transportation. Europe eventually caught up and passed the U.S. in train technology, but that's because most Europeans still use rail for daily commuting. It's threads from Brits here that complain about horses in the roadways, not Americans. One more thing about transportation, how are those planes (American invention) workin out for ya?

As for Britain being a world power (yeah, right) your little island was nothing more than an afterthought to the Larger, more prosperous U.S. Our country dwarfed yours from the start and population/economic growth in the U.S. far outpaced your island with ease. Britain has NO influence on the U.S. We don't even care what your doing on your island. "Only country to hold influence?" Tell that to all the countries that have U.S. military bases and repeatedly ask the U.S. for assistance. You need to get your head out of that shit pile you've buried it in and take a real look around. We have more muslims, and more people from other cultures than Britain could ever fit. My wife is Asian and my neighbors are from Hungary and India. We are the melting pot. If your in such better shape, why is it your public transit system that keeps getting hit by Muslims?

Anyone can claim to work however many hours per week, but the official work week in Britain (last time I checked) was less than 40 hours. It's less than 40 hours in nearly all other civilized countries, and your pay is twice as much as the U.S. As for "jargon", I get the feeling your job involves the use of a shovel. I know the American public education system needs work, but your just sad. RTIX.com. Look it up. We just bought Tutogen medical in Germany. At least the Germans are still setting the pace for technology in Europe. Not as advanced as ours biotechnologies, but close.

Get off your ego and take a real look around.

[kniller]

Wo Wo Wo Wo Peabody. I resent that!

Only Scotland!! what about the land of MY fathers!! WALES now there is a trully great and beautiful nation!

OK i've said my piece, you may now continue to insult the ENGLISH

[Goff]

Ooooh time for my two penneth i think cos i like a good "debate"

Irrelevant, your name is apparently quite fitting.

First, very few Americans bother to visit Britain. "Tens of thousands"? I'd like to see that statistic. The only vacation spots worth mentioning are in Scotland. America has far more history than 300 years. Hell, St. Augustine Florida dates back to the 16th century and that doesn't even include Native American History. And while your discussing leadership, at least we're smart enough to put a limit on how long an idiot like George W. can sit in office. Unlike your fat queen.

Personally i dont give a stuff about who's got more heritage than who - but i do give a stuff about the fat queen remark. I am a Royalist - like it or lump it - and i find your comment extremely insulting - if remarks like this are all you can come up with - then you really need to grow up.

British heritage? Let's see, your country had slaves before the U.S., to be more specific, your own people were slaves to your kings and landowners. How civilized is that? Your country was also one of the last to utilize eating utensils. Human rights? You do realize why America was formed? We were free (well, most of us) when your country still had debtor's prison, no freedom of religion and subjugation to government. As for cars and trains, until the United States put engineering know-how into cars and trains they were only oddities with very little functional value. America invented the largest, most powerful locomotives until the 1940's. The car (which we made into a viable, affordable mode of transportation) made rail a less feasible means of transportation. Europe eventually caught up and passed the U.S. in train technology, but that's because most Europeans still use rail for daily commuting. It's threads from Brits here that complain about horses in the roadways, not Americans. One more thing about transportation, how are those planes (American invention) workin out for ya?

*YAWN*

As for Britain being a world power (yeah, right) your little island was nothing more than an afterthought to the Larger, more prosperous U.S. Our country dwarfed yours from the start and population/economic growth in the U.S. far outpaced your island with ease. Britain has NO influence on the U.S. We don't even care what your doing on your island. "Only country to hold influence?" Tell that to all the countries that have U.S. military bases and repeatedly ask the U.S. for assistance. You need to get your head out of that shit pile you've buried it in and take a real look around. We have more muslims, and more people from other cultures than Britain could ever fit. My wife is Asian and my neighbors are from Hungary and India. We are the melting pot. If your in such better shape, why is it your public transit system that keeps getting hit by Muslims?

Again you are showing just what an ignoramus you really are. It wasn't "Muslims" who hit our transport system it was EXTREMISTS - many "muslims" are peaceful people - do not tar them with the same brush - Oh, if you wanna argue the toss over whether or not we are in better shape (personally i couldnt give a shit, but feel i HAVE to point this out to you as you seem incapable of sitting back and actually using that hamburger-addled brain of yours), and do correct me if im wrong sunshine, but didn't these "muslims" as you call them, fly not one, but 3 planes into VERY FUCKIN LARGE AND IMPORTANT BUILDINGS in the US???? Our transit system in ONE CITY in the whole of the UK is small fry in comparison so dont even go there sonny.

Anyone can claim to work however many hours per week, but the official work week in Britain (last time I checked) was less than 40 hours. It's less than 40 hours in nearly all other civilized countries, and your pay is twice as much as the U.S.

You pay peanuts, you get monkeys - hence why our wages are more than yours and we work less hours

As for "jargon", I get the feeling your job involves the use of a shovel. I know the American public education system needs work, but your just sad. RTIX.com. Look it up. We just bought Tutogen medical in Germany. At least the Germans are still setting the pace for technology in Europe. Not as advanced as ours biotechnologies, but close.

Your point being what? Maybe this fabulous company you work for could use these allograft and xenograft implants to help you wind your neck in.......

Get off your ego and take a real look around.

Practice what you preach and all that

[Peabody]

Ooooh time for my two penneth i think cos i like a good "debate"

Again you are showing just what an ignoramus you really are. It wasn't "Muslims" who hit our transport system it was EXTREMISTS - many "muslims" are peaceful people - do not tar them with the same brush - Oh, if you wanna argue the toss over whether or not we are in better shape (personally i couldnt give a shit, but feel i HAVE to point this out to you as you seem incapable of sitting back and actually using that hamburger-addled brain of yours), and do correct me if im wrong sunshine, but didn't these "muslims" as you call them, fly not one, but 3 planes into VERY FUCKIN LARGE AND IMPORTANT BUILDINGS in the US???? Our transit system in ONE CITY in the whole of the UK is small fry in comparison so dont even go there sonny.

We were attacked once, and not a single mop head has been able to touch us on our own soil since. You got your rail system hit, then your bus system was attacked. I'm sure there will be more in the future since your country hasn't been able to put a lid on your "extremists" yet. It wasn't Mormons that blew up your transit system (several times), it was MUSLIMS. What's more, they were "extremists" born in BRITAIN! Your own citizens. The Muslim religion doesn't teach it followers to blow up innocent people, but even the muslims I know personally haven't stood up and said "hey, this isn't acceptable", or done anything to stop it. They just turn a blind eye and let it happen. At least you got one thing right. Your definitely small fry.

Regarding RTI, I hope those big words didn't scare you.

[Peabody]

kniller,

This has probably been circulating around GB awhile, but I have seen a poster at some of the Scottish festivals here.

First there were the Scots. They honored the sabbath, everything else was fair game.

Then there were the Welsh. They preyed on their knees, and their neighbors.

Next there were the Irish. They don't know what they want, but they're willing to fight for it anyway!

And lastly there were the English. Who declared themselves a "self-made nation"- thus relieving the Almighty of

a terrible responsibility. :lol:

All in good fun.

[Goff]

We were attacked once, and not a single mop head has been able to touch us on our own soil since. You got your rail system hit, then your bus system was attacked. I'm sure there will be more in the future since your country hasn't been able to put a lid on your "extremists" yet. It wasn't Mormons that blew up your transit system (several times), it was MUSLIMS. What's more, they were "extremists" born in BRITAIN! Your own citizens. The Muslim religion doesn't teach it followers to blow up innocent people, but even the muslims I know personally haven't stood up and said "hey, this isn't acceptable", or done anything to stop it. They just turn a blind eye and let it happen. At least you got one thing right. Your definitely small fry.

Regarding RTI, I hope those big words didn't scare you.

Im SURE it was THREE planes that were crashed into the buildings and another one that was also hijacked crash landed in a field somewhere - that makes a grand total of FOUR - not one - but then again i wouldnt exepct you to be able to count with the level of intelligence you have shown on the forum.

As for them being born in Britain - so what? Im sure the US has more than its fair share of extremists born there - im not really sure WHAT point yo are trying to make here.

RTI - there you go again trying to be clever

For your information i am currently at University studying for a degree and doing rather well thankyou very much, oh and just for the record the majority of the course is biomechanics - i suggest you google that, I'd like to know what level of education YOU got to sunshine - and another thing - i've already had a job offer from the US of FUCKIN A no less (ive STILL got a year left on my course too) - seems they are desperate for intelligent and articulate folk like me to flood their shores.................

[Live to ride Ride to live]

We were attacked once, and not a single mop head has been able to touch us on our own soil since. You got your rail system hit, then your bus system was attacked. I'm sure there will be more in the future since your country hasn't been able to put a lid on your "extremists" yet. It wasn't Mormons that blew up your transit system (several times), it was MUSLIMS. What's more, they were "extremists" born in BRITAIN! Your own citizens. The Muslim religion doesn't teach it followers to blow up innocent people, but even the muslims I know personally haven't stood up and said "hey, this isn't acceptable", or done anything to stop it. They just turn a blind eye and let it happen. At least you got one thing right. Your definitely small fry.

Regarding RTI, I hope those big words didn't scare you.

Im SURE it was THREE planes that were crashed into the buildings and another one that was also hijacked crash landed in a field somewhere - that makes a grand total of FOUR - not one - but then again i wouldnt exepct you to be able to count with the level of intelligence you have shown on the forum.

As for them being born in Britain - so what? Im sure the US has more than its fair share of extremists born there - im not really sure WHAT point yo are trying to make here.

RTI - there you go again trying to be clever

For your information i am currently at University studying for a degree and doing rather well thankyou very much, oh and just for the record the majority of the course is biomechanics - i suggest you google that, I'd like to know what level of education YOU got to sunshine - and another thing - i've already had a job offer from the US of FUCKIN A no less (ive STILL got a year left on my course too) - seems they are desperate for intelligent and articulate folk like me to flood their shores.................

your over that Unfortunatly hes unable to listen, because all he can hear is his own moaning and whinging.