captf Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Part of my desire to stay in a higher gear is the tight-fistedness of me. lower revs = less fuel More than confused me - with the housemate - was that the instructor's reasoning was "you'll be able to accelerate away faster if you need to", and comments that revs as 'low' as mine was dangerous because I didn't have the acceleration if I needed it, and if it was test scenario, being in "too high" a gear could fail her. My main issues with that is 1) at ~9k, there's nowhere to accelerate into! 2) it doesn't take much to drop a gear and gun it, and 3) I don't trust the acceleration of a YBR to ever want to need it - I ride as if there's none. For reference, 9k rpm on a YBR is 30 mph in 2nd gear... I do check speed and revs regularly. As you suggest; a very quick glance down. I know where the needle positions are to not actually read the numbers yet still know what I'm at. Ttask: I've always wondered what 'feathering' means too... I see it in reference to brakes, mainly. To me, it has 2 possible meanings. 1) fluttering it on and off lightly, or 2) applying a "feather's touch", so it's just lightly constantly on. I've never had a context to figure out which was meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirriePete Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Checking clocks - yes, quick look at the speedo every now and then, not a problem. However, if you start riding by checking the rev counter then you'll be developing a bad habit from the word go and once that habit's formed it's a bugger to get rid of later on. You don't want a trainee looking down at their rev counter whenever they're pulling away from a junction/the lights/wherever, do you? 8-9k rpm? Jeez, how long do that guy's bikes last between engine blowups? As you say Cap, there's no go left at that point so opening the throttle will just make a loud noise and bounce the bike off the rev limiter (where fitted, your bike may differ, terms and conditions apply, see website for details). Far better to keep the engine spinning in the fat bit of the torque curve, on these 125 singles that's usually between 4-7k, so 5k would be fine. Saying that, I knew a guy years ago had an RS125 and he'd take it to the redline in every gear, coz his "mates" told him that was the gearchange marker, wouldn't listen to any other advice, somehow the bike never blew up! Feathering - in the context of bike controls this has always meant being gentle with things as far as I'm concerned. Fluttering on/off is moving into the area of cadence braking and the like, not really a subject for CBT. Blimey, is this thread moving away from Noisy and his training aspirations and towards a "Dummies Guide to Riding Bikes"? Not that that's a bad thing, especially for some of the younger, inexperienced guys that come on here, they get to benefit from the accumulated wisdom of crusty dried out fossils like myself - Tip Number 1 - DON'T CRASH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captf Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I figured this seemed like a good thread to extend this, as it would help push the CBT knowledge of Noise It's all very well explaining how to do moves, but someone will always try to have a question that may make you go "um... I'm not sure" To be fair, it's mainly confirming what I thought things should be [and it amuses me I passed my test with these uncertainties - I just rode with what felt right] What worries me more is my housemate is doing the 125cc lessons on her own bike [because she feels comfortable on it]. So if it breaks, she's the one that'll need to front repair costs because she's riding like she was told. But anything I say that doesn't fit with what I've been taught [from 2 different schools] is met with a "you're wrong!" because it's not matching what the instructors of her place are saying. [For the place I passed with, one of the guys at this school says he worked there, and they had bad practices, and another girl going to this school says they tried to con her - I saw neither of these happen] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noise Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 Blimey, is this thread moving away from Noisy and his training aspirations and towards a "Dummies Guide to Riding Bikes"? Not that that's a bad thing Its fine, i dont care how a thread goes and this one is still on the same subject that it started out with which was about CBT's and if it does turn into a dummies guide then as you say thats not a bad thing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttaskmaster Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Lower revs = less fuel used = greener bike. High gear with low revs means you have LOADS left to go... unless he means burbling in 5th at 20mph, he's talking absolute bollocks. I would like to think there's been a miscommunication. Yes, your bike can accelerate faster if you need to... but it still won't be very fast on a 125 and you should NEVER rely on power to get you out of a situation. That's just piss-poor forward observation and planning skills. I look at my revs sometimes, but that's because my bike will do 75mph in 1st gear. I have such a wide power band, it's almost unlimited. But I still rely more on the sound and feel of the bike to find an appropriate gear. Feathering - Yeah, it generally means a light touch. Same for the brakes when you feather them a bit, with one finger or something, to just trim your speed a little before sitting into that long slow bend... Pulsing the brakes... if you need to do that often, get ABS fitted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captf Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Lower revs = less fuel used = greener bike. I think it's why I've managed almost 300 miles on a tank of the YBR before (: My own gear changes have always been dependant on what I'm doing - pulling off from lights in the morning/evening on the way home, I delay the gear changes, to ensure I'm up in front. Not giving a fsck about how fast I'm going? I'll change up a gear early, since I don't need the extra torque. unless he means burbling in 5th at 20mph, he's talking absolute bollocks. I would like to think there's been a miscommunication. Further talks suggest that the instructor has said no higher than 3rd gear at 30mph. She said his reasoning was for being able to get up to 40mph quickly after a speed limit change. I continue to fail to see the point in remaining in a low gear here, for that circumstance. Speed changes don't occur suddenly; there's plenty warning to drop a gear if you need to. And there's no legal requirement on how quickly you get up to speed... and you should NEVER rely on power to get you out of a situation. That's just piss-poor forward observation and planning skills. Accelerating out of situations is actually an advanced technique [at least in a car], and one that's a reaction to special circumstances. I'd advocate better to learn to anticipate what the traffic could do, and have your speed and position ready to need the least action. On a bike, I'd guess that having too much torque available is more more dangerous than not enough [until you have the proper control] And advanced techniques should not be something for CBT/test prep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttaskmaster Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 >My own gear changes have always been dependant on what I'm doing Exactly! This becomes much clearer on bigger bikes, where you can break the speed limit in any gear.>She said his reasoning was for being able to get up to 40mph quickly after a speed limit change. Depends entirely on the bike.>And there's no legal requirement on how quickly you get up to speed... The general instruction I got was to get up to speed as quickly as possible... And if you fail to get up to speed quick enough, you can fail the test either for Failing To Make Progress, or for actually presenting a hazard to other road users.>Accelerating out of situations is actually an advanced technique [at least in a car], and one that's a reaction to special circumstances. That's nice... My FJ will do that quite readily. But how does this apply to a piddly little 125 which does not have massive acceleration? My 125 did 0-60 in something like 13 seconds, IIRC. Good luck accelerating anywhere like that. You had to change up gears at least twice before you even breached 30mph! This concept will work fine most of the time, but if ever you then get on a bike with much lower acceleration and/or find yourself in a situation where you cannot accelerate quickly, you are fucked.>I'd advocate better to learn to anticipate what the traffic could do, and have your speed and position ready to need the least action. Pretty much... My instructor hated the word 'anticipate', on the basis that you will never actually know and often would never have guessed what some dumbfuck cager is going to try. Instead, he taught to simply leave enough room for any kind of error and always be looking for the escape route. That has saved me on many an occasion and even my near misses have not been as near as they could have been! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captf Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 And if you fail to get up to speed quick enough, you can fail the test either for Failing To Make Progress, or for actually presenting a hazard to other road users. Yeah, but to be fair, at a test, on a 600+cc bike, that shouldn't be an issue. (: But if your bike can't accelerate up to 40mph in a reasonable time, regardless of the gear, there's problems with the bike. Even a 125. Sure, up to 60... that may take a while, but 40? And as said, you can see the speed limit change approaching [if not, you're not paying enough attention], and can downshift if needed as you approach it. you will never actually know and often would never have guessed what some dumbfuck cager is going to try. I'm more thinking "There's a junction up ahead, keep an eye out, move slightly over in case a car emerges too quickly", "can that guy wanting to turn across me see me? Get ready to brake" or "lights are green, let's go. But quick check for knobber cager trying to beat the lights and failing" That sort of anticipating. And now I think we're moving beyond "idiot's guide to riding" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttaskmaster Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 And now I think we're moving beyond "idiot's guide to riding" This sort of stuff was all taught to me on CBT, along with things like how to know blind spots on other vehicles (and thus stay out of them as much as possible). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captf Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I honestly can't remember if that sort of thing was taught to me on my CBT, or in the first lesson after. I do remember one of the instructors being shocked that we weren't sure of road positioning based on road type, when going to turn. [And then my instructor down here telling me that that was out-dated and pointless.] That one was, in particular to do with left turns. In Glasgow, I was taught you only move to the left when coming from a side road onto a main road - from a main road, you don't move to the left but stay in the centre, because it's safer to remain dominating the lane and not letting someone overtake. Manchester was "move to the left regardless". Conversely, both taught moving over to the right of the lane for right hand turns, regardless of the type of road. However, I do know that my housemate wasn't taught much of blind spots of other road users, or safe following distances. Noisy/Pete - how much of this is classed as CBT required knowledge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirriePete Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Positioning - right for right junctions, left for left but be aware of the slingshot effect when going major-minor: too far into the left before the turn can make you drift out on the exit. The 'dominating the lane' argument doesn't hold water, you're about to turn left so who gives a shit if someone overtakes? Positioning for bends, basics are position to get the best view without coming into conflict with oncoming traffic, so left for a right-hander and vice-versa, but always staying clear of the corner cutter coming the other way. Safe following distance & blind spots all covered - 2 second rule an' all that, don't sit in the middle behind a wagon, or any vehicle dependent on wing mirrors (includes the Volvo estate on his way to the skip with a boot load), etc. Hazard perception, defensive riding, observation and anticipation skills development ...... all these and more are covered in CBT - by us anyway, can't speak for other schools ....... If anyone's interested in what should be covered, here's a link to the official DVSA CBT guide Spread the word! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noise Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 As Kirrie said above really. Also what we teach at the school im with is OSMPSL and OSOMPSL OSMPSL is for Minor to major left or right turns and position is key: Observation = mirrors 100 yards from junction Signal = turn your indicator on Manoeuvre = move the bike over to either the white line if turning right or move close to the kerb if turning left Position = check to make sure your bars are not over the line or smacking pedestrians Speed = check your speed slow it right down so that you can creep and peep to check the road is either clear to carry on or if you have to stop. Look = left shoulder check if turning left or a right shoulder check if turning right. (but if your close to the kerb when turning left then you have blocked any Lycra louts cutting you up) NEVER RUSH A RIGHT TURN THOUGH!! OSOMPSL is used for turning left or right off of a major road onto a minor road these are more dangerous as you may have to stop in the road before you make your turn due to the side road being blocked by traffic, pedestrians or oncoming traffic. Turning left off a major road onto a side road is also dangerous as on approach we drop down one gear to reduce your speed but then we keep the clutch out and leave the brake off and just let the bike take itself around the corner. If you pull the clutch in the bike will speed up as its now freewheeling and you will end up on the wrong side of the road as your turn in. So OSOMPSL stands for: Observation = Mirrors Signal = indicate Observation = shoulder check (left or right) Manoeuvre = move the bike over Position = maintain the position of the bike Speed = slow down you give you time to assess if the new road is clear to enter and it’s safe to do so Look = now before you turn you must do a life saver check before you turn! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captf Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I'd never heard of the OMO... version of it, although was taught that the observation should be in there anyway - it was always just referenced as the "OMSPSL! Easy to remember!" version. [Or as my instructors in Glasgow continued with, "none of that pitiful mirror signal manoeuver pish."] Going round corners, I personally may slip the clutch slightly, depending how sharp the corner is. And shouting at my housemate who seemed to think that disengaging the clutch is how she should go round, despite my saying it's not wise [mainly because I can't properly explain why. I think it may be because you'll be losing power, which will then cause you to go wide as you slow down] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirriePete Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 OSMPSL, dunno 'bout the extra O - we teach that initial obs should be 'Mirror, mirror, blind spot' so you've already looked, get yer signal on and move over. Then it's the PSL bit. Freewheeling round a corner - the bike's not under power so it can wobble and fall over if you're not careful - while the engine is driving the wheels the whole plot is stable - see Colin Edwards spectacular 'almost won a MotoGP once' bin at Assen in 2006: he was in the gravel, the bike shook it's head, straightened up and ran on to nearly win the race without him, pity the tyre wall got in the way..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttaskmaster Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Going round corners, I personally may slip the clutch slightly, depending how sharp the corner is.And shouting at my housemate who seemed to think that disengaging the clutch is how she should go round, despite my saying it's not wise [mainly because I can't properly explain why. I think it may be because you'll be losing power, which will then cause you to go wide as you slow down] I scream at the Ttaskmistress when she does this, clutching in and coasting round things... My CBT onwards, we were always taught to drive the bike round the corner. This means slowing down and gaining optimum position before you even start the turn. Shoulder check, then add a touch more throttle as you lean it in and drive cleanly around, building throttle as you straighten up and pull away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirriePete Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Exercise for the freewheelers: Do a slalom in 1st gear, at tickover with the clutch all the way out, all you do is steer it. Now do exactly the same, but this time pull the clutch in when you go to change direction at a cone. One method will result in a smooth slalom with a stable bike, the other will end up in wobbles and potential drops. The only time I feather the clutch on a corner is when it's really tight, we're talking hairpin, and it's a bit slippery, anything other than that the clutch is fully engaged and the bike is ridden round on a steady/rising throttle. Here endeth the lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noise Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 Well just a little up date on the progress of the course, im now onto element E of the CBT which is the road ride. I took my mate out last night to start using the push to talk system and giving him directions and telling him what he show be doing at junctions etc, it went as well as the Hindenburg! first round about i forgot to tell him to roll the throttle off this then snowballed into the next drama which in turn made my timings for the next few maneuvers completely out of sync. But i stayed calm, never once lost my cool and slowly dragged him back under control, it was far from perfect but for my first time trying to control a newbie on the road it was OK (3/10) I was able to give him good directions in a timely manner on where he was going, but i failed badly on the basic things of as he was coming to the junctions to do OSMPSL or OSOMPSL Off out again Friday afternoon so lets see if i can improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttaskmaster Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Keep at it, Noisy - You'll get there! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirriePete Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Just keep talking Noisy - from the outset tell the trainee everything you want him/her to do: "Turning left at the lights, so start your checks, mirror, mirror, blind spot, left signal on, position to the left, slowing down, selecting gear, check the junction, if clear go, if not smooth stop in first gear" and so on...... BTW, was down at Cardington yesterday and got my DAS ticket, just dropped one mark. Yay! Keep it up Noisy, it gets easier the more you do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttaskmaster Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 BTW, was down at Cardington yesterday and got my DAS ticket, just dropped one mark. Yay! Massive congrats to you, Pete!! The future of biking starts right here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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