Attention Dragstar XVS 125 Owners/Fans/Potential Buyers

[RatBob]

Hello everyone.

As we all know, the Dragstar 125 is a very desireable motorcycle. To a first time buyer, there are few learner legal motorcycles on the market that look as good as the Dragstar does. And the fact that it's a Yamaha goes a long way to convincing most people that it has some reliability. Unfortunately, sadly, this is not the case. Although Yamaha has rightfully earned itself a great reputation for making quality vehicles, the XVS 125 does not live up to this reputation. I say this as an owner, with many years experience.

One of the first things this motorcycle has an issue with is rust. You might think that I'm talking about chrome - well, I wish I was. The chrome on the XVS 125 is only average quality, so this will pit and rust unfortunately and there isn't a great deal you can do about it. If there wasn't so much chrome in so many hard to reach places then this may not have been such a problem, but then that's really the nature of the beast. But no, this issue doesn't really involve chrome, unfortunately it involves the frame. After just 34,000 miles, I discovered a big crack in my frame under my kickstand, where rust had eaten through a weld, and the weight being put on the kickstand had opened the hole into a crack. This had to be welded and patched up. That's the kind of repair that I'd expect to be doing on a 20 year old bike with 100,000 on the clock. This bike is just a little over 10 years old and only a third of the mileage. Not good.

Another rust issue is the exhaust header. This is a very poor design that suffers from rust to the point that the bolts will corrode to dust. My front exhaust pipe bolts have now snapped from being rusted through and will have to be drilled out, the holes tapped, and replacement bolts fitted. This is money wasted because the design was shit and the materials were poor. Cast iron exhaust headers not only rust extremely quickly, but they're unnecessarily heavy. Cast iron headers is the kind of simple technology you can expect to find on a car - motorcycles have long since moved past this. Even old triumphs and BSAs used steel pipes bolted directly to the head. Using cast iron headers is a huge backward step to make a saving in manufacturing costs. It's the kind of shitty shortcut you should expect from a cheapo Chinese bike, rather than a well respected Japanese brand.

The next issue it has, is unfortunately right where it really counts, and that's the engine. At around 30k miles, expect just about everything to fail on you. The spark plug threads, spark plug caps, the HT leads, the coils, the cam chain, the cam chain tensioner, the intake manifold, the oil pump. For the cam chain to go so slack that it's making a lot of noise after just 34,000 miles is really poor. The tensioner itself is "automatic" in the sense that it's held on a little ratchet, so as the cam chain becomes slack, the spring pushes on the tensioner to take up slack until the chain is tight again, and the ratchet prevents it from being pushed back. Once the tensioner has pushed out as far as it can go, the chain will need replacement. Although I haven't properly inspected it yet, my bike has cam chain noise. So either the tensioner has failed/isn't working properly, or the chain is so slack that the tensioner is no longer making any difference. When this happens, the timing becomes "retarded", that means that when the engine revolution pushes past the peak compression and the resistance in the valve spring, the spring pushes the valve back upwards, which suddenly turns the cam shaft forwards, causing the chain to suddenly go slack. By the time it's pulled the slack out of the cam chain, the next valve is now a little bit late to open. This happens with both valves, so that they both let fuel in and exhaust out too late. As this gets worse, the engine's top speed and accelleration will gradually drop until eventually the timing is so far out that it causes a catastrophic engine failure, and that's when your bike ends up on the scrap heap.

But wait, there's more. Another issue with this motorcycle is an actual inherant design flaw, and it's to do with the wheels and what we call "steering geometry". The steering geometry is what determines how a motorcycle handles when cornering, and also how stable it is riding in a straight line at different speeds. It determines how much you have to lean and countersteer to corner at different speeds, how well the bike will perform in different conditions, how much grip it will have, and the manner in which it tracks a corner - the way that one wheel will follow another. Where the dragstar goes wrong, is that out of all the 125cc cruisers from all the different manufacturers, it has the narrowest specified front tyre, while still having a relatively wide rear tyre. This is universally discouraged, because it creates an extreme difference in the cornering characteristics of the front and back tyre. Looking at a tyre, we see that it has a curved profile, and as the bike leans it "rolls" on this profile. If the front tyre is narrower than the rear, what happens is that when you lean, the front end of the bike will lean before the rear. What happens is, in extreme slow motion, as you lean the bike, the front tyre leans first while the back is more upright. This means that the front wheel is forced to face in the opposite direction to where you are leaning, because it wants to try to keep going in a straight line, but this causes the bike to lean more. This effect is countersteering, and it is why leaning your body causes the motorcycle to corner without having to consciously be aware of the countersteering technique. If both tyres were the same width and size, you would have to more consciously force the bike to countersteer in order to get it to move properly. So a little difference between the width of the front and back tyre is good. But when you have a back tyre that is quite a lot wider than the rear, what happens is the countersteering action happens too easily, and you end up being unable to corner without the back wheel losing traction. On a dry road this is fine, but owners of an xvs 125 will have noticed by now that cornering on a wet road you can constantly feel your back tyre losing grip. This is because you are doing what is called "broadsiding". Speedway bikes are actually deliberately set up like this so that they automatically powerslide around corners.

Naturally this is bad. This design WILL lose grip in corners because the front wheel is not stable enough when paired with the back wheel. The only way to fix it is to put a wider rim on the motorcycle and run a wider tyre. The rear tyre on a stock Dragstar 125 is a 130/90-15, and with a tyre that width your front tyre should be at least a 100, and preferably a 110, but on the stock it's only an 80. That's a difference of 50mm between the front and back tyres - 2 inches! You can see the problem here, compare any other motorcycle, or better yet compare larger CC motorcycles. Lets take the 250cc Kawasaki Ninja for example; a bit more power, a bit more weight, but it has the same 130 width rear tyre. It has a 110 front, so there's only 20mm difference between the front and back. This is a bike that is really well known for it's handling. Considering how the rake of the XVS 125 makes the steering less responsive than the rake on the Ninja, don't you think it's a bad idea to combine less responsive steering with a tyre width ratio that causes unwanted broadsiding? It means you have to lean a lot to get not much grip - not surprising so many people have had accidents on these bikes while taking a sharp corner!

So if you own this bike, please, sell it and get something else. If you're thinking of buying one, don't bother. The Honda Shadow, Honda Rebel, and Suzuki Intruder all have better build quality, engine reliability, and steering geometry. All have 90 front tyres, all have a rim that will accept a 100, none of them use cast iron headers, and they should all last well past 35,000 miles before needing any kind of serious service. You're much less likely to have an accident in a corner, and you'll get more enjoyment out of riding it as a result. Cornering will feel like you simply have more grip available to you.

I hope this has helped some people. I really have grown to hate this motorcycle now and can't wait to get something better designed.
Stay safe out there.
Scott.

[slice]

Sorry to see your list of woes Scot, you have really thought about this haven't you, have you ever thought of contacting Yamaha about your problems? not saying that you want redress or anything but feedback from customers, good or bad, would seem to be a desirable thing, they might tell you to foxtrot Oscar but at least you will have the satisfaction of having told someone who counts your thoughts on their bike. Send your message to some of the bike magazines as well, they are always looking for articles related to new and older bikes to fill their columns and if you make it amusing enough they will print it. Plus I did wonder if they have fitted the different tyre/wheel sizes for aesthetics rather than practicality you never know it might stir up a bit of a debate about getting bikes safe rather than smart looking. Stay safe mate.

[Noise]

Its strange really as my XVS 125 had 35000 on the clock and i had none of these issues at all, ok Granted the rust part is true but i only had it on the cage that supports the rear mud guard, nothing as bad as you had. I put that down to poor house keeping on the previous owners part, if you ride the bike in all weathers and fail to wash the shit off after then thats when rust gets in.

Never had a problem with getting it round corners as i didn't try and ride it like and R1 and more like a crusier i found it very nice in the lanes.

The chrome is shit and im not a lover of chrome but as its a 125 they need to make them buy-able to 17 year olds with no money so if they gave it the best things every then they will be out of the price range of their target market.

Sorry to hear about your dramas but save up and get bigger and better, the 650 is a cracking bike!

[Ttaskmaster]

It's a Cruzah, innit!!


You say you're an owner with many years experience... You don't say anything about your service intervals, cleaning or maintenance schedule. Also, you imply you put all 34,000 miles on the bike yourself, from new but don't specifically say so.
Can I request a short bit about you and your riding habits with the same detailed precision by which you analyse the bike characteristics, just to establish an accurate perspective?


As for the rest - These are just initial thoughts as I read:

Rust - Did you actually keep it clean?
You can get plenty of brushes, cloths and similar gubbins specifically to reach hard-to-reach places. Winter needs ACF50 or similar, as well.
I kept my 125 Drag (2002, IIRC) pristine and never had a single issue. Passed the 30k just fine.

Exhaust bolts - That's every Cruiser out there pretty much, innit? Again, keeping it clean seems to work rather well.

30,000 miles - Yep, that's when most poorly maintained Jap Cruisers tend to start karking it. 125, 250, 400, 650, 535, 750, 1100 - Dragstars, Viragoes, Shadows, Eliminators, Intruders, Marauders, I've seen most sizes of all these Cruisers go tits up around 30-35k. They last much longer if you look after them.


Steering geometry??!!
You're *seriously* comparing the handling of a Cruiser to a Ninja??!!
Might as well be bitching about how ragging your Fireblade throttle as if it were a CG125 "makes the front end unstable"...!!

I'd normally be really insulting about this, but since I have outridden Sporties on my 125 Drag, I guess I can roll with this...

Both my Drags were ridden as close to 600 Hoolie bikes as I could make them, all weathers including snow and ice. I can honestly say that I've NEVER had a serious problem losing rear wheel grip on my 125 Drag (or the 650, really).

The 'moments' I've had were all my own fault. First night out on my new bike, I was leant over so far I was scraping the pegs yet didn't think and grabbed the front brake. Second time I again panic-braked but this time on diesel. Final time was simply target lock during a slow U-turn and my knees getting in the way of full handlebar lock, resulting in me clipping the kerb. The only other one was over-revving on very wet campsite grass.

Tyres - The 650 Drag has a 100-110/170 front/rear mix (depending on year), which is even worse, so that should make for a fucking god-awful ride, right?
People should be sliding off and killing themselves left, right and centre, right?
So how come none of us Drag Queens here have offed ourselves by riding such deathtraps?

My primary thought is that we understand it's a Cruiser - It has limits, characteristics and features unlike any other bike, so you must adjust your ride accordingly. I like your especially structured approach, but feel you're perhaps expecting something from a bike that is obviously not designed for what you want.

[neversaydie]

Had mine for 4 years

Rode it through three winters

ACF50'd in winter

Serviced by me as per schedule

Washed/cleaned regularly

Never had a scrap of bother

Looked as good as the day I bought it, until Smidsy despatched to the scappers

[steph g]

Mines a bit of a rust bucket but I put it down to past owners who didn't take care of it.
My winter plan is to get rid of the rust or replace bits that need it then repaint the frame (where needed) and acf50 the thing thing within an inch of it's life.
Should sort it nicely. Apart from that I love my wee Dragstar. Then again mine's barely touched 9.5k so far.

[RatBob]

"It's a Cruzah, innit!!"

In what way is that a valid excuse? So a bike should be built with positively dangerous steering geometry because "it's just a cruiser"? Well I've got news for you bud; when it really counts, you'll pay for that attitude with your life/limbs.

"Tyres - The 650 Drag has a 100-110/170 front/rear mix (depending on year), which is even worse, so that should make for a fucking god-awful ride, right?
People should be sliding off and killing themselves left, right and centre, right?
So how come none of us Drag Queens here have offed ourselves by riding such deathtraps?"

Dragstars have maimed and killed people in corners, and most cruisers have this issue, which is why you see so many of them with lowside damage. The manufacturers do it to copy the "Harley look" and also because cruiser riders all have a boner over that fat rear tyre. Oh and also, most cruiser riders I've met haven't got a shred of riding knowledge or technique. Many of them don't know how to corner properly and as soon as I say "countersteering" I've completely lost them. This "I just learn as I go" attitude is particularly dangerous.

And for the record, no, the 650 dragstar is not comparable. Even though the front to rear tyre ratio is too wide, this effect only becomes pronounced in smaller bikes - so a 400cc or less. The front tyre in the 650 is large enough that it can cope a bit better, however with a narrower rear tyre the handling would be significantly improved.

"You say you're an owner with many years experience... You don't say anything about your service intervals, cleaning or maintenance schedule. Also, you imply you put all 34,000 miles on the bike yourself, from new but don't specifically say so.
Can I request a short bit about you and your riding habits with the same detailed precision by which you analyse the bike characteristics, just to establish an accurate perspective?"

I don't have to defend my riding habits, cleaning and maintenance schedule to you. Suffice to say, I'm probably up there with the top 5% of people who really seriously care for their machines. But that's as far as I'll go, this isn't a discussion of my abilities, this is a discussion of how these bikes don't stand up to the abuse of multiple previous owners well enough to be considered a "good" learner machine.

Scott.

[slice]

Hi Scott, I think you may be taking the comments a bit personally mate, to be honest you did say your bike has these issues and no one here doubts you sincerity about that but just as you have an opinion on the "cruiser" type bike so do others and having expressed them yourself you should not be surprised that others don't agree with your opinion and say so, the main reason for this forum is to be able to express an opinion and have others listen then see if others have the same problems and sometimes maybe get a solution. You didn't ask for an opinion or help with your problem you just launched into a what a load of crap they were and expected those who own these bikes to agree with you and it comes as a surprise when they don't and question your cleaning and maintenance routine, they aren't having a pop at you their saying what criteria are you using to make these claims. They have a perfect right to ask questions about your comments as they have no way of knowing how you treat your bike all year round and as such till you tell them they will think that your talking out of your arse, I for one am ok with your comments and found it an interesting set of comments that you have obviously thought a lot about, your complaints are fair as far as I can see from your point of view but others might not agree with what you said and told you so. Please don't take these other comments personally, they are, like yours, an opinion, and as such should be treated with respect not derision just because they don't agree with you.

[beemer328]

Hi all, my xvs 125 is now 11 years old, it has no rust and is almost "as new", the engine is as sweet as a nut and never fails to start. The reason ,I believe, is that the bike is washed down after any rain and is always garaged, everything is polished on a regular basis including the chrome and frame. it is serviced on time, every time using only genuine parts and top quality fluids.OK so its only done 9000 miles and has not had the hard daily rider life most 125s get and has been owned by the more mature riders (old farts), but If you see rust on your bike get something done about it before it gets drastic, regular cleaning and inspection will show up any issues, as with any vehicle, if you dont look after it it will let you down. As for the tyre and steering issues, remember, this is a cruiser, and should be ridden accordingly, if you want to go fast round corners buy a crotch rocket and a leather onesey. If you look at any "custom" style bike you will notice skinny front, fat rear. I followed a Victory vegas on a ride out a cople of months ago and the rider had to wobble the bike round a roundabout and through the bends, bicycle front tyre car sized rear, and I will say he paid a hell of a lot more for his bike than I did mine but they both came out of the factory that way. If you want a cruiser for its handling you are missing the point, form over function. A unicycle is dangerous but when you learn to ride it correctly its no problem. So the moral of the story is, dont blame a company for making a bad product, choose the correct product for the job you want it to do and then look after it.

Just my opinion.

[Toutsuite]

Dragstars have maimed and killed people in corners

Do you have any statistical evidence to back that assertion up?

Because there is evidence to the contrary: according to insurers, cruisers (and draggies among them) are involved in fewer accidents than other types of bike. And among cruisers the draggie (at least the 650) is among the best handling.

[beemer328]

Do you have any statistical evidence to back that assertion up?

I have seen quite a few dropped bikes during rideouts and while at work, I also know many bikers that have come off, the only cruiser being a Harley being ridden by a mate, which he was knocked off of by a twat in a cage coming out of her drive backwards, I dont give damn what anyone says, what size tyres he had on the bike aint going to stop that.

[Noise]

Cruiser = fat, lazy, slow. A bike which you can see the cows in the fields and the totty at the bus Stop.

Sports bike = out right fun, fast and nimble. Cannot see any thing bar blurs and startled cows. Hot totty laugh at you in leather all in ones sat in fetal position.

So if you want to go round corners fast buy a sporty bike,if you don't and buy a cruiser then don't bitch about your choosing of such bike.

[lallasro]

Dragstars have maimed and killed people in corners, and most cruisers have this issue, which is why you see so many of them with lowside damage.

dragstars don`t kill anyone. the owners kill them and the dragstars.

lot of people try to ride cruisers like sport bikes. well, is not a sport bike, a cruiser is heavier, longer, another riding position, another cornering technique, breaking is different, and probably a lot more, I have just those in my mind now.

+ a lot of cruiser owners ride just few miles during the year. no xp, they enter in corners with the same or high speed they use in a car, bang bang, bye dragy,

[Ttaskmaster]

In what way is that a valid excuse? So a bike should be built with positively dangerous steering geometry because "it's just a cruiser"? Well I've got news for you bud; when it really counts, you'll pay for that attitude with your life/limbs.

Oh, is that news for me? I didn't realise...

So all those tank-slappers and high-sides and myriad other crash-causing design flaws on the various OTHER kinds of bike make them far safer than the Dragstar 125 Deathtrap, do they?
What's your excuse for all that lot, then?

You're sounding like you just fucked up, crashed your bike or something and cannot cope with the concept that YOU fucked up.
Any Cruiser will deck the pegs well before it even considers losing traction and lowsiding. If you're coming off while cornering, you're taking the wrong lines and going in too fast, or simply target-locking.

Dragstars have maimed and killed people in corners, and most cruisers have this issue,

Err... guess what - Bikes coming off corners is a commonly cited cause of crashes, REGARDLESS of which bike you have. You now gonna tell me ALL bikes are dangerous and we should stop riding?

which is why you see so many of them with lowside damage.

Do I?
I've seen thousands of cruisers and none of them had any lowside damage... Where's your evidence?
Compare that to 6-1200 hoolie bikes which DO have some scratching, most commonly from static drops.

The manufacturers do it to copy the "Harley look" and also because cruiser riders all have a boner over that fat rear tyre.

Sorry, *WHICH* bike do you claim to own again, boner boy?

Did you not also say it was fucked when you bought it? Did you not also intimate that the 'mechanic' was utterly incompetent, yet still found demonstrable issues you yourself, in all your supposed wisdom, were completely unaware of?

Oh and also, most cruiser riders I've met haven't got a shred of riding knowledge or technique.

You haven't met very many then... No really, you havent.

Many of them don't know how to corner properly and as soon as I say "countersteering" I've completely lost them.

Again, that is a large percentage of bikers in general, not just Cruisers.

I do also wonder why, if you have SUCH great technique and experience, knowledge, ability and know-how that you consider yourself above the vast majority of motorcyclists... what the fuck are you doing on a 125 still?
Why are you buying clearly knackered small bikes and then bitching about it, when a rider of such immense calibre as yourself should surely be blazing up the road on anything between a 600 Bandit, through an R1 right up to a Hayabusa?
I mean, if you're THAT good and all... Heck, an FJ1200 would cost far less than a 125 Drag and be a far more suitable bike for anyone who knows anything, much less the *everything* a top 5%-er like you would.

The front tyre in the 650 is large enough that it can cope a bit better, however with a narrower rear tyre the handling would be significantly improved.

What does engine size have to do with it?
It either copes or it doesn't.
Having ridden both, I can confirm that they cope admirably.

I don't have to defend my riding habits, cleaning and maintenance schedule to you.

Err, yes you do...
You come on to a Yamaha forum, having bought yourself a completely fucked Yamaha bike to begin with and then go on to utterly slate said Yamaha bike that is very popular and successful here, without giving any sort of quantifiable evidence to disprove that YOU are not the problem.

Many here ride or have ridden the 125 Drag and are very happy about it. You are the only one that seemingly isn't. The evidence presented, statistically if nothing else, strongly suggests you are indeed the issue, not the bike.
I therefore legitimately challenge you to disprove it.

Suffice to say, I'm probably up there with the top 5% of people who really seriously care for their machines. But that's as far as I'll go,

You're not going to quantify it beyond your own vague opinion??!!
I call bullshit.
Complete and utter fucking bullshit.
You fucked up and are trying to blame the bike, ranting away at the brick wall of evidence that contradicts your misplaced beliefs.

this isn't a discussion of my abilities, this is a discussion of how these bikes don't stand up to the abuse of multiple previous owners well enough to be considered a "good" learner machine.

It's a discussion that raises the question of your lacking abilities (against the opposing opinion of those here who have had successful experiences with what you suggest are lesser abilities to your own), which thus far has not been ruled out, along with the fact that ANY bike which is heavily abused to the degree your piece of shit was, will also be similarly fucked.

But to further the argument you yourself made, despite being utterly fucked, that bike still ran and hit 70mph... By your own statements, it sounds like a pretty well-built bike to me!!

[Noise]

God i hope to see a come back to this one.

[Campaman]

RatBob, 1 question, how long have you been riding to come up with these comments?

[neversaydie]

I think a comeback is highly unlikely

Shame that

[Ttaskmaster]

RatBob, 1 question, how long have you been riding to come up with these comments?

That's not something he has to defend, apparently, even if it's not (initially) being attacked... But suffice it to say he's in the top 5%!

Comeback or not, that was a load of ranty crap... That bike was, by his own admission on his other threads, utterly shagged to begin with and nowhere near indicative of the resulting high quality from the millions of pounds Yamaha spent designing the thing in the first place.

[slice]

Tasky, You nasty man, you scared him off!! Like Noise I was hoping for a bit more to come.

[Noise]

Give the thing its due, as Tasky said if the 125 Draggy is so shit how come Robs bike being a bag of crap when he bought it still managed 70mph? which as we have all proved and argued over IS the maximum speed of a 125cc motorcycle.