Would you give me your opinion ?

[Gas up - Let's Go!]

Chaps,

As a fairly free thinking group, I'd like your opinion on this.

Recently there was a report on the BBC news about a bike thief who died while riding, and crashing a stolen bike without a helmet on. On another forum I posted the link and made a comment that I had no sympathy for him, and also, in my opinion the police should persure these people with extreme prejudice.

Now these comments caused one or two responses, mostly in agreement, along the lines of 'what goes around comes around', and 'thieving scum deserve all they get'

However, one or two people found this post, and the comments 'obscene' I have tried to understand thier opinion, but so far have failed.

So, without falling out, is there anyone out there who would have any sympathy for such a person ? Opinions vary, I just want to try to understand.

??

[up.yours]

a bike is replacible,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,a life isn't.

[Ttaskmaster]

You're actually WANTING my opinion???!!!!

OH JOY!!!!!!!!!

OK, simply put - Feck him... or her. Whichever they are/were.

They tried to get away with something very wrong, fecked up and paid the price.

This isn't just about bikes, either...

I always explain to people that if they pull out on me, I won't care because I will be dead. THEY, on the other hand, will get 37 stone of bike (plus 12 of rider) crashing through their side window and into their face. They will live the rest of their life horribly disfigured.

Or, if they've been really unlucky, I will crash through the back window and into their kid's face, leaving *them* a horrible wreck.

If you're big enough to know that what you're doing is wrong, you're big enough to pay the price.

All the bleeding hearts out there can stuff it - Death is a very natural and frequent price of failure in all aspects of Nature. Humans are not excempt and while I don't think the death penalty discourages idiots from committing crimes, certainly I have no pity for people who die while doing others wrong.

[KirriePete]

So, without falling out, is there anyone out there who would have any sympathy for such a person ? Opinions vary, I just want to try to understand.

??

None whatsoever, thieving git cocking about on a stolen bike with no helmet is only going to end one way, with the average IQ of the planet going up slightly. Family comments on how he was a lovely lad etc. - yeah, made sure his Mum had the latest 50" plasma telly and all that stuff, all on dole money, amazing!

Also don't have a problem with cops chasing them into binning it, as long as no innocents are involved, or any form of defence of one's own property (hint: get the big Mag-lite torch, the 6 D-cell one, makes a damn good club and the law allows use of such non-weapons in self defence ). Basically, no more "It's me 'uman rights, innit?" - you're operating way outside the law and want protection by that same law? Feck orf!

Ooh, look what you went and did, made me all ranty!

[oldtimer]

with you on this gas i have no sympathy what so ever for the guy,i am sick to death of these thieving bastards and the attitude of the law to them,this policy of not pursueing stolen motorcycles was highlighted in manchester a few weeks ago when an R1 a CBR600 and a CBR1000RR were stolen from a dealership the police were called but were ordred not to pursue because the thieves were not wearing helmets WHAT! the chief superintendent pointed out that the guidelines from the ACPO stopped them pursuing them as there was a danger to the riders lives and it was also covered in the european human rights act.

its all a joke when you cant defend your own property for fear of being charged with assault the police wont chase them for fear they may get hurt.

so for anybody wanting to nick a bike DONT WEAR A HELMET you will be okay they will not chase you and i cant give you a whack with my baseball bat to stop you. or maybe i will

[jquinton]

They steal and take the risk, if they get chased and dont stop for the police well so be it. It then becomes their choice, personally I think a Tazer or stinger may be the answer.

Having just got my sons bike going agian after it was stolen, some bast@@d has had it away again, I have no stmpathy for them, cost money and his job.

[steveandlee]

My opinion, well short and sweet...................... if they take someones pride and joy they deserve whatever sentence they recieve. Be it a custodial one or death by riding like a idiot.

My choice................ the later, coz then you know they cant nick it again.

If i nick a car the police will chase me at totally suicidal speeds from here to kingdom come. I probably have not bothered to put my seat belt on. does this mean the police say 'oh sorry sarge we cant chase him, he hasn't got his seat belt on'. DO THEY HELL.

If its nicked they have a common duty to use as much force as necessary to recover it. If the guy/girl dies in the process, so be it.

Its called collateral damage, sorry not very short and sweet. You got me on my soap box............... i'll get off now.

[exkaraokeman-chris]

No Sympathy For Him At All , I Have Had 3 Lcs Stolen From Me Over The Years, And Car Drivers Can't Understand How Much That Hurts. I Have Had Cars I Love, But a Bike Is Part Of You. He Took The Risk,And Paid The Price , Good Riddance To Bad Rubbish !

[Vez]

I'm in agreement with nearly everyone here, the thieving bstds deserve anything that happens to them.

Death is a light sentence and torture would be more fitting imo.

If i nick a car the police will chase me at totally suicidal speeds from here to kingdom come. I probably have not bothered to put my seat belt on. does this mean the police say 'oh sorry sarge we cant chase him, he hasn't got his seat belt on'. DO THEY HELL.

The police don't continue to chase cars (stolen or not) if they decide that said car driver is likely to cause death/injury to anyone whilst trying to evade capture, or at least they don't in Manchester.

[up.yours]

your all wrong,life holds a much higher value than metal,be it your bike or mine,you can't just kill someone cos they borrowed a bike.iff theft was punishable by death,,,,what would be the sentence for a pedo or a murderer,,or would we just devalue that sort of crime,,,,,,out of the three i have brought up, i think bike theft is a minor offence,and doesn't deserve a death sentence.

[Vez]

your all wrong,life holds a much higher value than metal,be it your bike or mine,you can't just kill someone cos they borrowed a bike.iff theft was punishable by death,,,,what would be the sentence for a pedo or a murderer,,or would we just devalue that sort of crime,,,,,,out of the three i have brought up, i think bike theft is a minor offence,and doesn't deserve a death sentence.

I don't think anyone is saying that the death sentence should be dealt out to bike thieves, more that if they die in the process of stealing a bike then they don't deserve any sympathy.

Maybe i could of worded my response better, but i think if they do die whilst stealing a bike they have got off lightly, i think they should have their hands tied up be given a dose or any other ailment that makes you want to itch like mad, then left to rot in a cell for 6-months with nothing but the bare minimum amount of nourishment they need to survive(no tv /games console/gym or any other bs that they get now) to contemplate why they are there. And also sterilize them upon release to stop them reproducing and spreading their genes. And thats me being nice.

If it was legal i would prefer to deal with them myself, using a blowtorch a wire coat hanger a lump hammer and a soundproof room.

[/rant]

[Gas up - Let's Go!]

kill someone cos they borrowed a bike.

I don't think that is a fair summing up. They didn't borrow the bike, they chose to violate your property and take it without your authority to do so.

However, I'm interested in your opinion more than the others (sorry!), mainly because I'm trying to understand this point of view. Personally I agree with all the others, and I kinda expected the overwhelming response that has come forward.

Interesting for me, I view theft as a violation, your post suggests that you don't see theft as such a bad thing. Where I see it as a personal attack, I assume you look at it more philosophically (it's only metal etc)?

I certainly don't think minor (in the grand scheme of things) crimes should carry a death penalty, I do think the Middle East countries have the right idea in removing a hand when convicted of theft. I do agree with the death penalty for very serious stuff, such as Ian Huntly, Peter Sutcliffe etc, those who have no chance of ever walking free again. I also think the Human Rights Act is seriously flawed as it protects those than have chosen to move outside of the rules (breaking the law). I believe when you choose to break the law, and then evade the law, then you should not have the protection of the law. The same would be true for anyone who chose to break into your home, no protection from the law. The whole 'reasonable force' thing is a joke, as any rank and file office will tell you if you manage to get them to talk off-record.

So, back to my lack of sympathy for a thief who died whilst riding a stolen motorcycle. I understand your viewpoint on the sanctity of life (it's easy to take life, but can you give it?)but I can't see why you would have sympathy for someone whose last act was to violate someone elses property, riding without consideration for the safety of themselves or others?

[Paulwhite]

some people would sympathies saying its a wast of life and that people can change, so there past mistakes shouldnt make any considerable impact on there life! (other than their attitude) i doo like the middle eastern idea of if you get branded a thief they cut your hand off but in this day and age its a little barbarick, think a finger would surfice then that would give them a lifetime to think about it. its pathetic that in the 21st century a thief can get away with invading someones property intending to take something that dont belong to them and get away with it! but at the end of the day if it was your son/daughter who got in with the wrong crowd and was pressured to do it but have never done it before you wouldnt wish them to come to any harm of any kind. suppose you have 3 views the thief's, the owner of the property and society, the thief would want to be let off, the property owner would want them dead and society would like them to be punished but rehabilitated so there has to be a happy medium, id say they should let the property owner be left alone (with police looking through the 1 way glass) for a certain amount of time (depending on the offense) with the thief! that would be a good medium!

[KirriePete]

your all wrong,life holds a much higher value than metal,be it your bike or mine,you can't just kill someone cos they borrowed a bike.iff theft was punishable by death,,,,what would be the sentence for a pedo or a murderer,,or would we just devalue that sort of crime,,,,,,out of the three i have brought up, i think bike theft is a minor offence,and doesn't deserve a death sentence.

He didn't die because he 'borrowed' the bike, he died because he was an idiot who thought he was indestructible and the laws of physics proved him wrong in the biggest way - unlike human law, the laws of momentum do not allow wriggle room for appeal.

[Ttaskmaster]

some people would sympathies saying its a wast of life and that people can change,

People can... the problem is that they don't.

Don't or won't.

Either way, there is no deterrent to keep them from committing crimes and nothing that motivates them to bear responsibility.

Whether it's theft, murder or whatever, people are finding themselves increasingly able to get away with it and it's often only the easy targets, those who take responsibility for themselves, who end up being punished.

For example:

Three blokes break into a single mother's house. They beat and rape her on her floor, right in front of her children. She knows who they are and so takes them to court. The court finds them guilty. It's published in the papers.

They then counter-sue her, for damage to their reputation. The court awards in their favour and the mother must now sell her house to afford the costs.

The QC presiding over the case was Cherie Blair.

If life is so precious and the taking of a life is such a deplorable thing to people, why am I reading about murderers who only get 5 years and are still let out after 18 months for good behaviour??!!

I won't go out of my way to kill someone, but if they happen to die while committing a crime and/or I'm the one forced to make them dead, I just see it as part of the risk in doing something they know they shouldn't do.

You know you shouldn't put your hand in fire, so why do people complain about getting burned?

[up.yours]

you have to take into account the reason/reasons why he took the propperty in the first place,he could have an illness ,or an addiction ,or maybe a big black man is doin his wife,who knows,but iff the police,give chase and he dies,we won't know why he did it,therfore we can't help or provent other offenders.he was someones child and we are sopposed to be a humane society .paulwhite sums it up with his three veiws ,the theif the victem and the public oppinion . dont get me wrong though i would happily take a hammer and nail ,and leave them on a tree.

[Gas up - Let's Go!]

you have to take into account the reason/reasons why he took the propperty in the first place,

I think I see where you are coming from now. So you see the 'pursue with extreme prejudice' option as failing to deal with the root cause, fair enough. Where this fails is in the courts, there just isn't the stomach or money to deal with these offenders as they need to be dealt with. A driving ban and a few hour litter picking isn't enough. If we had some real punishment, jail with nothing but sufficient food and water to survive, or the removal of a finger (Ok, the hand is a little extreme!) say for thieves would be more like it.

Taking Pauls example, I would want hi shead removed, the thief would want to walk away, so a fair balance is to chop one of his fingers off.

If we could trust the courts to deal with these people effectivly, then I would agree, it's better to catch and process them within the law. Where the courts cannot, or will not deal with these people then the simple answer is for them not to end up in court..... one way or another...

Back to the sympathy issue, isn't this a caring emotional thing? I don't think you are saying is you have some sort of emotional feeling for this guy's death. Do you feel more that justice hasn't been done, according to the law ? Have I misunderstood what you are saying when you say you feel sympathy, I assumed it was for the thief, when what I think you mean is, it's for due proccess ?

I think, when theives know the Police will not give chase, it makes the situation worse. Where the theif understands that he (or she) will be pursued without compasion, then I think this might have more of an impact of the kind of thief that is at the 'edge' of breaking the law. Such a person might be a child who is being peer-pressured, or someone who is desperate - when they think the punishment is litter picking it's never going to stop them, if they think they are getting a finger chopped of, then it should make them think - if not, after the 10th time it's not going to be a problem.

[AndyDtr08]

It happens, comes to mind and even that feels like im caring too much. I mean he got what he deserved for simply not wearing a helmet, let alone the fact that he had stolen the bike and presumably put numerous other peoples lives in danger ( pedestrians, other road users, the police whom were forced to chase him). It's a shame that a life got lost and there will family members left mourning their loss but that just goes on to prove, in my mind, that he deserved the lose his life. Whats the point in a selfish individual like that being around, other than to keep the show "road wars" on sky tv.

The only other real tradedgy in this, other than the family members, is that some poor bloke/woman has to go and scrape him off the road.

Edit-Read the rest of the thread now.

Taking into consideration that there might be reasons why he took the bike. He could then pull over and explain the circumstances. If it were life and death or someones life was in danger then im sure the police would take this seriously. They could get to the scene of this "life and death emergency" alot quicker and safer than someone who clearly has no regards for his or anyone elses safety.

Im not sure whats meant by addiction etc? Could you give some other examples as to why he might need to twoc a motorbike?

I see what you say about the metal/life argument and if i allow the logical side of my brain to take control then yes. Life is more important than an hunk of metal. But i feel that there are many factors that could cause an attatchment to a bike that makes it appear more valuable than a member of society that has chosen to break the very laws that are there to protect him/her as well.

I have always strongly agreed with the point Gas made about no longer being protected by the law if you decide not to obey them and although i would also like to have the forgiving nature to feel sympathy for someone in this situation but i cant imagine i ever would.

[Ttaskmaster]

>he could have an illness

The he should be in hospital, or at home in bed.

>or an addiction

Then he can get his cracked-up arse OFF my bike and into rehab.

>or maybe a big black man is doin his wife

There are support groups for this, too...

>he was someones child

And when he selfishly crashes into three teenage pedestrians (who are also people's children), are we still to bleed our hearts out for him?

Hitler was the son of a customs officer, Goebbels of a factory worker, Himmler of a teacher, Göring of a cavalry officer and governor, Barbie (Klaus, not the doll) of two teachers and Eichmann of an industrialist businessman.

[Cynic]

On 9/9/2010 at 9:45 PM, up.yours said:

you have to take into account the reason/reasons why he took the propperty in the first place,he could have an illness ,or an addiction ,or maybe a big black man is doin his wife,who knows,but iff the police,give chase and he dies,we won't know why he did it,therfore we can't help or provent other offenders.he was someones child and we are sopposed to be a humane society .

Sorry speaking as someone who has lost out on 3 (1 never seen again, 1 total wreck and one saved by a big lock)occations to bike theives he was master of his own destruction.

The line about us being humane is all very well but where do you draw the line. If he had plowed into a bus stop full of people during the chase it would be the police's fault. Thats wrong, if he broke into my house and tripped on the stairs thats MY fault. How is that right. Even worse if he had broken into my house and i bury his head in the wardrobe for his trouble i'm the one looking at time. Huh

When is any of the latest generation going to accept that it happens. Everything is the fault of someone else. Their mum was doing the milkman, they had a problem with stress. Bollokcks, there have been times in my life when things have been pretty awful and i got on with it. I didn't nick other peoples stuff. I didn't vandalise anything cos i was BORED.

"What does'nt kill me makes me stronger". They don't mean ducking bullets in a gangsta film. They mean coping without sleep cos your kids got collic, they mean working 2 jobs cos you have some debt (been there), work hard and reap the rewards not wait for the handouts.

Its a loss that he died granted. But if he had put some humanity foreward ie the part that say's stealing is bad, held his head high and kept walking he would still be walking.

Personally i wont be losing any sleep over it.