jron Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 My tcat does not feel happy braking on the lean keeps trying to sit up. I want to be able to brake all the way to just before the corner apex. damping front and rear is firm and good. Bike feels planted in the corner under power but not on the brakes. Any advice on possible improvements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttaskmaster Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 AFAIK, bikes all stand up when you use the rear brake in a lean. They also lowside when you use the front under such circumstances. Try braking sooner, setting up the corner and then powering through the curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Cynic Posted April 16, 2009 Moderator Share Posted April 16, 2009 My tcat does not feel happy braking on the lean keeps trying to sit up. I want to be able to brake all the way to just before the corner apex. damping front and rear is firm and good. Bike feels planted in the corner under power but not on the brakes. Any advice on possible improvements? Struth man its not an R6, ALL motorcycles will stand up on the brakes in a corner and as for going from breaking to power with the bike on its side, accident waiting to happen. If you are riding like this on tarmac you are going to crash at some point you are talking about backing it in. That is for racetracks and better bikes than the one you have, and i can't see you using a cat at a trackday. You get all the breaking done real early like before the corner then feed the throttle in, gentle like. As a bike is much more stable on power with weight to the rear, the suspention is compressed and stable ready for the exit and then after you have made the apex (if you must) as the bike starts to come up back onto the fatter part of the tyre give it some beans in a solid controlled increace. Get that lot right you will be leaving darkies and destroying kneesliders if thats your thing as there is no faster way round your favorite bends. Or you can go in at a billion miles an hour break right up to the very last which leaves absoloutely no spare for Justin (Case), then you are leaned over you upset the bike with a massive weight transfer you are bullying the bike down, the suspention goes all messy as you have gone from breaking to throttle. at best the bike will feel loose and unstable probably weaving about a bit, goodbye apex. You get nervous, tense up and you are in trouble. Cos you are tense the bike wont respond,you go straight on, hello hedge. If you are lucky. Do yourself a favour and go do a day at a track with an instructor, improved my riding beyond all measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madison Motorsport Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 If you are having to rely on the brakes that much while leaning, you need to look closely at your riding style - it's all wrong! It seems to me that you are misjudging bends and going in too fast. Maybe on an R1 or R6, you would get away with it, but a T/Cat is not a full on sports bike and needs a little more respect. You need to slow down your entry and maintain that speed up to the apex. Then you can gently apply throttle until you are lifting the bike up again. Then pin it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal ken Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 i would aggree to what's said above, where in scotland are you, give me a shout if you want to go for a ride, i'l show you how i tackle the corners, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamigirl Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Jesus someones got a death wish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttaskmaster Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cov_AL Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 If you are having to rely on the brakes that much while leaning, you need to look closely at your riding style - it's all wrong! It seems to me that you are misjudging bends and going in too fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cov_AL Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 I'll agree that the best method is to brake before the bend, However being brave/stupid means leaning more *edit - when you've gone past the point you should have started braking* - I've been using counter steering for years, and all is fine untill you panic and brake, which makes the bike sit up, which makes you corner wider, which isn't good if you were braking in a hurry... You get nervous, tense up and you are in trouble. Cos you are tense the bike wont respond,you go straight on, hello hedge. If you are lucky. I realised recently that when braking on a corner, counter steering was going out of the preverbial window. I'd like to re-state here that braking early is the best method - BUT - When I found myself braking hard and late in a corner I pushed harder on the bars to countersteer more and therefore lean more. This seemed to balance out the force making the bike want to "sit up" and I got a very nice, controlled action (bit scary doing it for the first time though). Be careful! As you slow down, the force making the bike sit up decreases - and you don't want to end up sliding along the road! As has been said above - a track day is a great (and fun) way to increase you riding skill. To cap it off - Ride at a speed relative to your skill level, brake early, Don't try this at home (but if you do take some spare underwear, lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barwell1992 Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 im not a expirianced rider on big bikes i have just been out for the 4th time on my MT-03 660cc with my dad (i dont have a license yet so we were been naughty lol ) and he was carving the line for me around some fast twisty roads where i live and from what i gatherd what you should be doing is easing off the throtal as soon as you see a sharp ish bend coming then as you hit the apex then reaply the throtal again but if you need to break or slow down some more (if the throtal is not slowing u fast enough then drag the back brake slightly) then there is hardly any chance fo you comming off PS: i have only been on a geard bike 4 times now and im prety sure thats how its ment to be done if not pleas enlighten me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cov_AL Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 you should be easing off the throttle as soon as you see a sharp ish bend coming. Then, as you hit the apex, reapply the throttle again - but if you need to brake or slow down some more (if the throttle is not slowing you fast enough) then drag the back brake slightly and there is hardly any chance fo you coming off but every chance you will go wide! Do you know about countersteering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gas up - Let's Go! Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Hmmmmmmm...... This is going to let a rabbit off, but what the hell. Racers will brake in mid bend - front and rear, it stabilises the bike as the suspension will compress slighly. It is an advanced manouver and I'd never suggest that anyone tries this in a public place, get it wrong and you take a trip through the scenery. Cast your mind back to the days when you did your CBT, or even your test on a 125. The only way to keep a bike stable in slow speed corners is to trail the rear brake. Move up to a big single and you will find you are doing the same, only faster - Ain't never had the bike stand up on me! In a high speed corner, trailing the rear brake will tighten the bend insofar as the bike is concerned. Do it slow (applying the brake that is) and you'll see how you can corner safely, and be in a possition to stop mid bend should you need to. You are require to be able to stop in the distance you can see to be safe, sometimes that distance changes (through no fault of your own, a rabbit, dear, idiot on a GSX etc) and you need to be able to react. These are all advanced techniques and require practice and good instruction to perfect - last week I saw the IAM instuctor bring a Busa to a dead stop, mid bend - Now that's bike control. (also saw a U-turn in less than 15 feet, at full lock, but that's another story). So, you can brake mid bend, it is safe and you can keep the bike in full control. However you have to be quite skilled in your bike control and the use of the brakes. I suspect your bike is standing up because the braking effort is too great, could be that you're used to the other bike (my Tenere and XJR are like chalk and cheese). Or maybe the brakes are binding, but if you keep the throttle open and stay off the clutch you should be safe enough. Try braking on a straight, clear road and clip in the clutch, see if the bike behaves as you would expect it to, do it slow at first just in case!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cov_AL Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Racers will brake in mid bend - front and rear, it stabilises the bike as the suspension will compress slighly. It is an advanced manouver and I'd never suggest that anyone tries this in a public place, get it wrong and you take a trip through the scenery. In a high speed corner, trailing the rear brake will tighten the bend insofar as the bike is concerned. Do it slow (applying the brake that is) and you'll see how you can corner safely, and be in a possition to stop mid bend should you need to. You are required, to be able to stop in the distance you can see to be safe, sometimes that distance changes and you need to be able to react. So, you can brake mid bend, it is safe and you can keep the bike in full control. However you have to be quite skilled in your bike control and the use of the brakes. I suspect your bike is standing up because the braking effort is too great, Trailing the rear brake can help cornering, but I read this post as less to do with cornering and more more concerned with "braking hard when not in a straight line" if you see what i mean... So Jron - has this helped? Do you know about counter-steering? Do you normally trail the rear brake? From your post, you seem to be asking for a way to adjust you bike - not critisism (and friendly advice) for your riding style. A twisted frame or wheels out of alignment can cause steering problems - But I don't think that is the case here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttaskmaster Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 +2 for countersteering. I asked Guy at work here, who is one o' them racey types at Donnington, Cadwel etc. He simply said, "More countersteering" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fazerider Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 "Or you can go in at a billion miles an hour break right up to the very last which leaves absoloutely no spare for Justin (Case), then you are leaned over you upset the bike with a massive weight transfer you are bullying the bike down, the suspention goes all messy as you have gone from breaking to throttle. at best the bike will feel loose and unstable probably weaving about a bit, goodbye apex. You get nervous, tense up and you are in trouble. Cos you are tense the bike wont respond,you go straight on, hello hedge. If you are lucky." That's exactly what I did, ended but in the central crash barrier of the roundabout with a broken collar bone and 2 months off work, I am still having the Physio 3 months on. Take the advice being given, it is sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gas up - Let's Go! Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Here's a fact for you, MV2 / R is the effort used whilst cornering. This force is taken from the vehicles speed and therefore the vehicle slowes down. Picked this up from the IAM Instructor on Wednesday night! Point being, when you corner the more you open the corner up, ie (for a right hander) goin in wide to the left, clip the apex and exit wide on the left you will loose more speed in the corner due to the cornering force (requiring more throttle to maintain speed). So if you do feel you are going wide you can use this to help scrub speed off, should you need to. But correct observation and planning would remove this and you can take the correct route through. The correct route through (again a right hand bend) would be to go in deep, keeping to the left (level with the apex) then a quick lean, back up and exit the corner to the right-of-centre side of your lane. This way you keep your observation path wider for longer, you loose less speed in the corner (due to the reduced corner radius) and exit in the right place. Check this site out for some tips on your riding - get the observation & planning right and you never need to touch the brakes again, oh and learn to use the vanishing point to controll your speed. Edit: DOH! Heres the link http://www.datacraftsystems.co.uk/techniqu...echniques_left/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTGordo Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Here's a fact for you, MV2 / R is the equal to the cornering force in a corner. This force is taken from the vehicles speed and therefore the vehicle slowes down. Picked this up from the IAM Instructor on Wednesday night! Point being, when you corner the more you open the corner up, ie (for a right hander) goin in wide to the left, clip the apex and exit wide on the left you will loose more speed in the corner due to the cornering force (requiring more throttle to maintain speed). So if you do feel you are going wide you can use this to help scrub speed off, should you need to. But correct observation and planning would remove this and you can take the correct route through. The correct route through (again a right hand bend) would be to go in deep, keeping to the left (level with the apex) then a quick lean, back up and exit the corner to the right-of-centre side of your lane. This way you keep your observation path wider for longer, you loose less speed in the corner (due to the reduced corner radius) and exit in the right place. Check this site out for some tips on your riding - get the observation & planning right and you never need to touch the brakes again, oh and learn to use the vanishing point to controll your speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTGordo Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Braking in corners? You never know what's around the next corner and it sounds like are pretty hard slap down if you loose the front. I've always been afraid of over commitment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kendo phil Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 I used to race karts and went on to have a go on the Formula first at silverstone. The trick with cornering is that the car or bike does not want to go round the corner - it wants to go in a straight line, Newton knew a thing or two about this. The vehicle is travelling in straight(ish) line and you want to corner. You brake and act against the momentum of the vehicle, this uses up a portion of the tractive force available from the tyres, say 25% for example. You then want to corner, again the vehicle wants to go straight, you are already using 25% of the friction between the tyres and the road. Now you want to hit that apex so you are using 60% (for example) of the friction remaining to corner. This leaves you 15% of the friction force between you and the road, now you hit a pothole or oil or diesel. You now need 20% more grip to carry on, this means you are using 105% of the capacity available to you and are in a hedge somewhere. The technique I was taught for being really fast around a track is to brake up to the corners (brake boards are bleedin wonderful) gently come off the brakes and turn in. Ideally you brake less as you begin to corner so you dont load and unload the suspension and as you begin to corner proper you dont have any brake at all, then gas on the exit decreasing the cornering forces and increasing the accelerating forces. It took me months to change my driving style and take on board the advice that others gave me, fortunately I worked at a karting track and had access to lap timers and a nice run off / tyre wall when it didnt go to plan. I had the good fortune to be able to try different corners and techniques and have a computer to show me the lap times. Go on a track day, follow the instructor and ask loads of questions, you pay them for just that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator drewpy Posted April 26, 2009 Moderator Share Posted April 26, 2009 no-one has mentioned Cof G as this affects how the bike behaves and what you can do with it. you can tighten up a bend by leaning low and forward on the side you are turning and the bike will steer that way better. rossi in the GP today was trying out a different approach by kicking his leg out early to set the bike up for the bend. drewps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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