JimR Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Right then peeps the cases are cleaned to within an inch of their lives, the crank is rebuilt with new big end shells and tightened to 25Nm with my new torque wrench... Question is this... upon inspection i saw that the starter/drive chain guide has snapped into three pieces, with a small section loose in the case miraculously held in place by the two larger sections still bolted to the upper case. Ive ordered a new one from Yamaha (£15) which will hold me up for a few days, is it possible that this is the source of the rattling noise??? also the the chain looks intact with little signs of wear, however according to haynes the chain links should not 'touch' when sat on the bench, whereas this chain does sag in the centre... Ive priced up a new chain (£137+vat), so i laughed heartily and am asking whether its practical to reuse the old one and whether there is a risk of breakage... Quick Edit: can the engine run without the chain guides??? are they crucial to safe engine operation or will it leave slack in the chain??? Hi Nath, you will need the guides but those Hyvo chains were/are good. perhaps no need to put one in, as an odd point I had a bike break the guide into 3 bits and guess what ... there was nothing wrong with the motor bar the carb set up. Look at it this way, if each of your 4 cylinders are trying to idle at a different speed .. cyl 1 @ 600 rpm cyl 2 at 750 rpm cyl 3 @ 500 rpm & cyl 4 @ 1000 rpm, which gives irregular forces applied to the primay (hyvo) chain as it flexes right to left (rather than up & down) it tends to snap the weller tensioner/guide. I know this sounds difficult to swallow but I was there and experenced these problems when these motors were new (b4 you were born perhaps). Regards Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nath Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 yeah ive had that feeling for a while jim... i'm canibalising an old 2HW for the guide and putting the old chain back in as yamaha have discontinued the parts... just purchased the oil seals to go on the crank... its an arse to be sure but hey sh*t happens and learning curves usually are steep! not long now though i hope... the unit might be finished by monday! Quick Edit: famous last words... managed to shear or round about 5 bolts before being rained off... i remember how much of an arse it was last time to strip an engine... i guess it can run without the full guide... half will have to do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nath Posted April 11, 2009 Author Share Posted April 11, 2009 Ok heres a good one - crankshaft oil seal, ive bought a new one from yamaha and it lacks a 'lip' going around it so therefore it wouldnt be retained in position as the engines running... fair play i think so i take it back with the original showing the difference... not so says the nice parts man, the 'new' type of oil seal is without said lip to allow for replacement without splitting the case halves... Have i just swallowed someones bullsh*t here? i mean its fitted now of course, ive even put silicone around it to make sure but if i rebuild this whole engine for the seal to move when i fill it with oil i wont be happy with the nice parts man... what say you??? oh p.s. Starter clutch fitted Crankshaft fitted Transmission fitted tomorrow: case halves together (when i find that pesky dowel) oil pan + gubbins Clutch then who knows??? beer methinks!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris wyatt Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 Hi guys my FZ engine has packed up and ive picked up another aircooled four supposedly from an FZ yesterday... Well typically its the same unit but after i fitted it to the frame it became clear that the electrical connections are different. the engine is an earlier model with different alternator etc (probably from the YX600 or something) im looking for help as to how i could make this work in my FZ - what needs to be chopped and changed so it will work - has anyone done this before??? any help is appreciated! nath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris wyatt Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 Hi guys my FZ engine has packed up and ive picked up another aircooled four supposedly from an FZ yesterday... Well typically its the same unit but after i fitted it to the frame it became clear that the electrical connections are different. the engine is an earlier model with different alternator etc (probably from the YX600 or something) im looking for help as to how i could make this work in my FZ - what needs to be chopped and changed so it will work - has anyone done this before??? any help is appreciated! nath HI NATH IVE ALSO GOT A 88 MODEL FZ600 WITH A KNACKERED ENGINE. BOTH THE FZ600 AND XJ600 ARE AIR COOLED (WITH OIL COOLER ON THE FRONT OF ENGINE. IM GONNA TRY AND PUT THE XJ600 ENGINE IN THE FZ. THE ELECTRICAL CONNECTIONS ARE DIFFERENT. THE ALTERNATOR IS ON TOP OF THE GEARBOX ON THE FZ ENGINE.THE XJ600 ITS ON THE SIDE . THE FZ HAS ONE MORE EXTRA WIRING PLUG RED AND GREEN FROM THE ALTERNATOR THAN THE XJ600 ENGINE. ARE THERE ANY CHANGES OR MODS I WILL HAVE TO DO TO MAKE THIS CHANGE WORK.WILL I HAVE TO CHANGE THE CDI IGNITER ? LOOM ECT . IVE ORDERED A WORKSHOP MANUAL TO GET SOME INFO. POSSIBLE WIRING DIAGRAMS. ANY HELP OR INFO FROM YOU GUYS WOULD BE VERY HELPFUL. THANKS CHRIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris wyatt Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 HI NATH IVE ALSO GOT A 88 MODEL FZ600 WITH A KNACKERED ENGINE. BOTH THE FZ600 AND XJ600 ARE AIR COOLED (WITH OIL COOLER ON THE FRONT OF ENGINE. IM GONNA TRY AND PUT THE XJ600 ENGINE IN THE FZ. THE ELECTRICAL CONNECTIONS ARE DIFFERENT. THE ALTERNATOR IS ON TOP OF THE GEARBOX ON THE FZ ENGINE.THE XJ600 ITS ON THE SIDE . THE FZ HAS ONE MORE EXTRA WIRING PLUG RED AND GREEN FROM THE ALTERNATOR THAN THE XJ600 ENGINE. ARE THERE ANY CHANGES OR MODS I WILL HAVE TO DO TO MAKE THIS CHANGE WORK.WILL I HAVE TO CHANGE THE CDI IGNITER ? LOOM ECT . IVE ORDERED A WORKSHOP MANUAL TO GET SOME INFO. POSSIBLE WIRING DIAGRAMS. ANY HELP OR INFO FROM YOU GUYS WOULD BE VERY HELPFUL. THANKS CHRIS hi guys FITTED THE XJ600 ENGINE TO THE FZ TODAY .THE ENGINE RUNS .I CONNECTED ALL WIRES NO PROBS. I USED THE ORIGINAL FZ600 CDI IGNITOR CHANGED NO WIRING . THE RED AND GREEN WIRE ON THE LOOM FOR THE FZ IS THE ONLY DIFFERANCE .THEY ARE THE WIRES TO THE CARBON BRUSHES IN THE ALTERNATOR.THE XJ600 ENGINE HAS NO CARBON BRUSHES IN THE ALTERNATOR THAT I CAN SEE. BUT BOTH UNITS ARE THREE PHASE. THE RECTIFIER I THINK IS THREE PHASE SEEMS TO WORK WITH THEM NOT CONNECTED. SO ABSOLUTLEY NO MAJOR CHANGES THAT IM AWARE OF .THE ONLY PROBLEM THERE SEEMS TO BE IS THE ENGINE RUNS AND IDLES UP AND DOWN ROUGH BUT REVS UP WELL UNDER THROTTLE. CHOKE IS ALSO OUT OF SNC. THERE IS ALSO A VERY LOUD CHIRPING NOISE IT GETS QUICKER WHEN THROTTLE IS GIVEN. IS THIS A CARB FAULT ECT.....ANY ADVICE HELP WOULD BE GREAT. BUT THE CONVERSION FROM THE FZ600 TO THE XJ600 ENGINE CAN BE DONE WITH NOT MUCH FUSS OR MODS. MANY THANKS TO YOU ALL CHRIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junker Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 wow! when did this all go down!?! where was I? I am only 17 and love my '88 FZ-600 like a friggen god, i even started listening to 80's rock more frequently, so seriously don't feel weird Nath, you have a way to come if you wanna compete (fun note: there is a nostalgic glimpse of a Yellow FZ in the movie clips to the old game "Road Rash 3DO" that came out in mid-90's) Anyway, I didnt know the fz and radian engines had so much different, i know one thing for sure though, as far as the ignition goes, the pickup coil on the side of the crankcase is the same, so that would suggest the timing is likely to be about the same. And the only thing that might negatively effect the change in timing might be the valves (i've heard stories of them snapping off in older GSXR's when the piston hits em) and the ignition coils that you obviously have from the FZ and the Ignitor which control the sparks, so besides the valve and cam timing, there should be no electrical swaps needed for the job right? Oh and to Jim and the other guy that were arguing for awhile there, i know that my 1988 FZ600 IS NOT water cooled, however it has a radiator-looking "oil-cooler" mounted in the front.... I'm pretty sure no FZ's were water cooled until the FZR came out in '89. Perhaps the fellow who claimed to have a water-cooled model actually had a FZ with an FZR engine swap?????? possibility... so how has it come Nath, is it done by now, on the road yet, or are you still hitting into Yama-hahaaa brick walls. P.S. i have an oil somewhere on the lower half of my case, it drips onto my exhaust that is under the oil pan and makes a smokey, smelly, nasty experience when it idles. I have narrowed down the search to something below the clutch cover due to lack of oil anywhere above it. My first thought was the oil filter cover, but feeling around there gave no oily evidence. I just thought that with you having the knowledge of stripping our mutual bikes down to bare bones that you might know of some sneaky little place under there that oil might like to seep from when the bike is running (not much of a leak when bike is off). Anything might be helpful, thanks Also, like chris said, any wiring diagrams you might have would be a hugely-astronomically-awesome help!!! thx, junker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris wyatt Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 hi guys FITTED THE XJ600 ENGINE TO THE FZ TODAY .THE ENGINE RUNS .I CONNECTED ALL WIRES NO PROBS. I USED THE ORIGINAL FZ600 CDI IGNITOR CHANGED NO WIRING . THE RED AND GREEN WIRE ON THE LOOM FOR THE FZ IS THE ONLY DIFFERANCE .THEY ARE THE WIRES TO THE CARBON BRUSHES IN THE ALTERNATOR.THE XJ600 ENGINE HAS NO CARBON BRUSHES IN THE ALTERNATOR THAT I CAN SEE. BUT BOTH UNITS ARE THREE PHASE. THE RECTIFIER I THINK IS THREE PHASE SEEMS TO WORK WITH THEM NOT CONNECTED. SO ABSOLUTLEY NO MAJOR CHANGES THAT IM AWARE OF .THE ONLY PROBLEM THERE SEEMS TO BE IS THE ENGINE RUNS AND IDLES UP AND DOWN ROUGH BUT REVS UP WELL UNDER THROTTLE. CHOKE IS ALSO OUT OF SNC. THERE IS ALSO A VERY LOUD CHIRPING NOISE IT GETS QUICKER WHEN THROTTLE IS GIVEN. IS THIS A CARB FAULT ECT.....ANY ADVICE HELP WOULD BE GREAT. BUT THE CONVERSION FROM THE FZ600 TO THE XJ600 ENGINE CAN BE DONE WITH NOT MUCH FUSS OR MODS. MANY THANKS TO YOU ALL CHRIS HI ALL QUICK UPDATE SORTED THE PROB WITH THE CHIRPING NOISE .IT WAS THE CARBS SUCKIN AIR THROUGH THE RUBBER PORTS.CLEANED CARBS AND RE SEATED TO ENGINE .RUNS OK NOW. JUST WAITIN FOR GOOD WEATHER FOR ROAD TEST . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris wyatt Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 wow! when did this all go down!?! where was I? I am only 17 and love my '88 FZ-600 like a friggen god, i even started listening to 80's rock more frequently, so seriously don't feel weird Nath, you have a way to come if you wanna compete (fun note: there is a nostalgic glimpse of a Yellow FZ in the movie clips to the old game "Road Rash 3DO" that came out in mid-90's) Anyway, I didnt know the fz and radian engines had so much different, i know one thing for sure though, as far as the ignition goes, the pickup coil on the side of the crankcase is the same, so that would suggest the timing is likely to be about the same. And the only thing that might negatively effect the change in timing might be the valves (i've heard stories of them snapping off in older GSXR's when the piston hits em) and the ignition coils that you obviously have from the FZ and the Ignitor which control the sparks, so besides the valve and cam timing, there should be no electrical swaps needed for the job right? Oh and to Jim and the other guy that were arguing for awhile there, i know that my 1988 FZ600 IS NOT water cooled, however it has a radiator-looking "oil-cooler" mounted in the front.... I'm pretty sure no FZ's were water cooled until the FZR came out in '89. Perhaps the fellow who claimed to have a water-cooled model actually had a FZ with an FZR engine swap?????? possibility... so how has it come Nath, is it done by now, on the road yet, or are you still hitting into Yama-hahaaa brick walls. P.S. i have an oil somewhere on the lower half of my case, it drips onto my exhaust that is under the oil pan and makes a smokey, smelly, nasty experience when it idles. I have narrowed down the search to something below the clutch cover due to lack of oil anywhere above it. My first thought was the oil filter cover, but feeling around there gave no oily evidence. I just thought that with you having the knowledge of stripping our mutual bikes down to bare bones that you might know of some sneaky little place under there that oil might like to seep from when the bike is running (not much of a leak when bike is off). Anything might be helpful, thanks Also, like chris said, any wiring diagrams you might have would be a hugely-astronomically-awesome help!!! thx, junker HI JUNKER IVE GOT SOME WIRING DIAGRAMS WILL TRY AND SCAN OFF . THX CHRIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris wyatt Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 HI JUNKER IVE GOT SOME WIRING DIAGRAMS WILL TRY AND SCAN OFF . THX CHRIS WITH REGARD TO YOUR OIL LEAK CHECK SUMP DRAIN PLUG , OIL PRESS SENDER ,OIL COOLER PIPES. TRY CHECKIN WHEN THE MOTOR IS RUNNING AND UP TO TEMP.THAT WAY ANY DRIP OR OIL TRACE WILL BE EASILY SPOTTED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nath Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 Hi all - i dont know - i go off to do my exams and suddenly everyone starts to rebuild FZ600s and i miss out on all the Goss!!! Right heres where im at (i dropped my laptop - buggering the internal bluetooth somehow - so pics are a no show at the minute) 1. The engine is assembled apart from the cams (im shitting myself about the timing setup as haynes isnt helpful) 2. Frame is cleaned up and resprayed white - i bought a new frame from ebay so the bike will now be an 'F' reg instead of an 'E' reg. 3. The loom still requires attention as the previous owner butchered it more than i thought... 4. the bike is 85% done - the LH fairing requires spraying in yellow/black as the old one fell off on the M18 (they shatter at speed) Overall im happy with how its going... its difficult to know if the engine will run (fingers crossed) it'll need the carbs retuning, a new chain and new brake pads... oh and retaxing Finally quick technical question - are there any tips with the timing arrangements, i have the no.1 piston at TDC but am aprehensive as to how to approach the next step... p.s. jimR rules... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nath Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 HAHA reading back on my thread ive missed a major section of the story out. so for those who give a sh*t! the engine cases were assembled and after assembly i noticed an odd looking piece just sat around next to the case (piece of the starter clutch) so it all was disassembled again - pieces replaced and all back together... then the starter clutch wouldnt 'ratchet' and was locked solid when the crank was turned - so it was split again and i noticed that in my haste a load of crap has found their way onto the big end shells and when the crank was turned it scored them... so back to yamaha for 6 new shells and to find that they no longer stock the shim which sits in the started clutch (which was cutting into the starter clutch itself... nor do they stock the guide for the hyvo chain any more... so lots of loctite on the remaining pieces of chain guide and its locked into position nicely - minus the centre piece. the shim was filed down with a metal file and placed back into the starter clutch (with no ill effects as yet). New bearings to replace the scored set and the whole lot was cleaned with paraffin and then blasted with an airline. I was going to replace the pistons, rings and cylinder with that of the spare engine however the bike had been dropped at some point knackering all the fins on the cylinder - so the originals have remained... to my detriment possibly! i have nicked the clutch from the spare engine as the plates had more meat on them - oh and dont EVER buy the aftermarket gasket kits that retail for about £80 - a tube of instant gasket by loctite is sufficient with a head gasket from yamaha. The aftermarket gaskets are poorly made and dont have half of the pieces you require for a full rebuild... if anyone wants advice into how to build an engine the hard way just PM me lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Hi all - i dont know - i go off to do my exams and suddenly everyone starts to rebuild FZ600s and i miss out on all the Goss!!! Right heres where im at (i dropped my laptop - buggering the internal bluetooth somehow - so pics are a no show at the minute) 1. The engine is assembled apart from the cams (im shitting myself about the timing setup as haynes isnt helpful) 2. Frame is cleaned up and resprayed white - i bought a new frame from ebay so the bike will now be an 'F' reg instead of an 'E' reg. 3. The loom still requires attention as the previous owner butchered it more than i thought... 4. the bike is 85% done - the LH fairing requires spraying in yellow/black as the old one fell off on the M18 (they shatter at speed) Overall im happy with how its going... its difficult to know if the engine will run (fingers crossed) it'll need the carbs retuning, a new chain and new brake pads... oh and retaxing Finally quick technical question - are there any tips with the timing arrangements, i have the no.1 piston at TDC but am aprehensive as to how to approach the next step... p.s. jimR rules... Hi, dont worry too much ... if the motor is out of the frame the job is easier .....but I'll describe it as in the frame. I guess piston #1 is the one on the left when sat on the bike (correct one to use). Ensure the Cams are set so the dots on them align with the marks on the l/h cam boss at this point joint the chain (if the chain is one peice let me know as you do it different in this case). Fit the cam chain tensioner (with the tensioner plunger pushed up & locked against the case but leave a gap of about 3mm between the tensioner & cylinder when fitted. release the tensioner (you'll hear a click) and lock it up then screw the tensioner to the cylinder. check that the crank is still showing LT against the datum mark and the cams line up (dots etc) then turn the engine CLOCKWISE (from the left) and SLOWLY about ½ a turn then turn it back anticlock and make sure all the marks line up. Dependant on which engine you have you may find the datum points on the cam sprockets ... let us know what you have ! Regards Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nath Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 Hi all, keeping this thread alive i thought i would post another few problems requiring attention... The engine is rebuilt... and fitted to the frame - the timing looks ok but time will tell however i took a brave pill and crudely cranked the engine over on the starter motor - attached to a car battery 'trick'... it spun over lovely and didn't implode or crap gears through the housing so im happy!!! Now my new problems have arose as ive reconnected the existing wiring loom, ive found that although i can get power to all lights and the neutral switch is functioning, the engine will not start - i cannot get the starter motor to turn over on the button... This is an intermittant problem which has become permanent over the last 2 days. initially the relay would click and buzz but would not turn the engine over. Then i disconnected the 'shorted' sidestand switch wiring and the engine turned over fine... so i connected the tank up to the carbs and pressed start once more... Nothing... And this has continued since then... A point to note is that sometimes on pressing the start button the oil light came on... however this no longer happens... So im well and truly stumped! Also upon connecting up the carbs to the fuel lines - fuel poured out the back of carbs 1 and 3 and out the overflow pipes... is a rebuild worth attempting or is it a specialist 'fiddly' job??? or better still can i just clean them with carb cleaner??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nath Posted September 26, 2009 Author Share Posted September 26, 2009 for reference it turned out to be a duff wire to the starter relay... turns over no probs now... Next problem is there is no bloody spark... typical... so im gonna swap the coils out unless anyone has a better idea... i get the impression that the leads cant be swapped on this type of coil pack??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Hi all, keeping this thread alive i thought i would post another few problems requiring attention... The engine is rebuilt... and fitted to the frame - the timing looks ok but time will tell however i took a brave pill and crudely cranked the engine over on the starter motor - attached to a car battery 'trick'... it spun over lovely and didn't implode or crap gears through the housing so im happy!!! Now my new problems have arose as ive reconnected the existing wiring loom, ive found that although i can get power to all lights and the neutral switch is functioning, the engine will not start - i cannot get the starter motor to turn over on the button... This is an intermittant problem which has become permanent over the last 2 days. initially the relay would click and buzz but would not turn the engine over. Then i disconnected the 'shorted' sidestand switch wiring and the engine turned over fine... so i connected the tank up to the carbs and pressed start once more... Nothing... And this has continued since then... A point to note is that sometimes on pressing the start button the oil light came on... however this no longer happens... So im well and truly stumped! Also upon connecting up the carbs to the fuel lines - fuel poured out the back of carbs 1 and 3 and out the overflow pipes... is a rebuild worth attempting or is it a specialist 'fiddly' job??? or better still can i just clean them with carb cleaner??? Hi Nath First off the oil light coming on when you press the start button indicates low battery charge (along with clicking/buzz from the relay) ! For help with the carbs .. I could pop across Regards Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nath Posted September 26, 2009 Author Share Posted September 26, 2009 bit far from worcestershire matey - wouldnt you say? i think its the floats with the carbs tbh, by the time this is finished there wont be a single component which hasnt been tinkered with... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 bit far from worcestershire matey - wouldnt you say? i think its the floats with the carbs tbh, by the time this is finished there wont be a single component which hasnt been tinkered with... I would say not the Divi could do with a run !!!! Regards Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nath Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 ill stick the kettle on and get the bacon on then mate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 ill stick the kettle on and get the bacon on then mate! Oh Ok , but I guess Roast Beef and all the trimmings would be better ! Regards Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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