nath Posted November 10, 2008 Posted November 10, 2008 Hi guys my FZ engine has packed up and ive picked up another aircooled four supposedly from an FZ yesterday... Well typically its the same unit but after i fitted it to the frame it became clear that the electrical connections are different. the engine is an earlier model with different alternator etc (probably from the YX600 or something) im looking for help as to how i could make this work in my FZ - what needs to be chopped and changed so it will work - has anyone done this before??? any help is appreciated! nath
JimR Posted November 10, 2008 Posted November 10, 2008 Hi guys my FZ engine has packed up and ive picked up another aircooled four supposedly from an FZ yesterday... Well typically its the same unit but after i fitted it to the frame it became clear that the electrical connections are different. the engine is an earlier model with different alternator etc (probably from the YX600 or something) im looking for help as to how i could make this work in my FZ - what needs to be chopped and changed so it will work - has anyone done this before??? any help is appreciated! nath well you could be well out of luck could be a 550 but if you change the field coil, cap of the altenater and the cdi pickups the engine should work, problem may be with the CDI unit it may have a different ignition curve to original, but never mind it could have had 528cc stamped on the front of the cylinder ...... or has it ? Regards Jim
nath Posted November 10, 2008 Author Posted November 10, 2008 Where would the stamp be exactly? just generally on the engine? ill be annoyed if its a 550... Theoretically could i strip the alternator off the old FZ engine and replace the twin units on the new engine??? then the plugs would match up - im not meaning to sound stupid but would my old FZ engine just be the same block etc with a revised alternator etc - or was the whole lot revised making older parts incompatible???
JimR Posted November 11, 2008 Posted November 11, 2008 Where would the stamp be exactly? just generally on the engine? ill be annoyed if its a 550... Theoretically could i strip the alternator off the old FZ engine and replace the twin units on the new engine??? then the plugs would match up - im not meaning to sound stupid but would my old FZ engine just be the same block etc with a revised alternator etc - or was the whole lot revised making older parts incompatible??? what is the modal code (first 3 digits of the engine number) for both engines ? from that it will give you the modal years and incompatiblities (if any) could be addressed, but I guess the altenator will swap over regards Jim
nath Posted November 15, 2008 Author Posted November 15, 2008 well i had a crack today - but it didnt go well... the ebay unit is a 2-HW engine whereas mine is a 3-KM (i believe) i removed the alternator but the mounts are totally different on the 2HW so no joy... I checked the markings on the ebay engine and it is a 600cc unit... I then went to plan B - and started stripping my old engine down - i had hoped to have it back up and running by tuesday but we shall see... so far its sat on a workmate with the head and cylinder block off (no sign of damage) no free play in the big-ends or main bearings - i might replace the rings while theyre out... now onto the clutch and finally the gearbox for signs of failure... its gonna be a long weekend...
JimR Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 well i had a crack today - but it didnt go well... the ebay unit is a 2-HW engine whereas mine is a 3-KM (i believe) i removed the alternator but the mounts are totally different on the 2HW so no joy... I checked the markings on the ebay engine and it is a 600cc unit... I then went to plan B - and started stripping my old engine down - i had hoped to have it back up and running bytuesday but we shall see... so far its sat on a workmate with the head and cylinder block off (no sign of damage) no free play in the big-ends or main bearings - i might replace the rings while theyre out... now onto the clutch and finally the gearbox for signs of failure... its gonna be a long weekend... ok not checked the modal codes but one of those numbers seems to hit memory as a YX600 Radion (but I may be wrong). But what packed up with the original ? to date cylinder, cylinder head, con rods & crankshaft are ok . if your motor had clutch or g/box problems it could be down to silly oil gallery that motor had. just keep me in the loop Regards Jim
nath Posted November 15, 2008 Author Posted November 15, 2008 Visually i can see nothing wrong, no scoring, no signs of burnt oil around the rings - a point that i forgot to mention though was the oil that i drained from the bike. if it was oil then im a succesful reggae artist... It smelled strongly of petrol and had the same viscosity of petrol, not thick like oil should be. Now my immediate thought was "how has this got into the system???" Ive seen plenty of cases of oil entering the combustion chamber but not petrol entering the oil system - any clues there??? i would hazard a guess that this has been in there for a while so probably caused excessive wear on some of the components... surely nobody is stupid enough to put fuel in the crankcase??? The previous owner reckoned that the bike had a full nut and bolt restoration a few years back, if so he sold me a different bike...
JimR Posted November 15, 2008 Posted November 15, 2008 Visually i can see nothing wrong, no scoring, no signs of burnt oil around the rings - a point that i forgot to mention though was the oil that i drained from the bike. if it was oil then im a succesful reggae artist... It smelled strongly of petrol and had the same viscosity of petrol, not thick like oil should be. Now my immediate thought was "how has this got into the system???" Ive seen plenty of cases of oil entering the combustion chamber but not petrol entering the oil system - any clues there??? i would hazard a guess that this has been in there for a while so probably caused excessive wear on some of the components... surely nobody is stupid enough to put fuel in the crankcase??? The previous owner reckoned that the bike had a full nut and bolt restoration a few years back, if so he sold me a different bike... ok I didn't realise I was talking to Bob Marley .. wat uded need 2 doo is chill Fuel in the oil is not good issues here are was fuel put into the oil or was fuel intoduced to the oil ? Fuel could end up in the motor with bad rings & top end .. fuel being sent via the breather to the G/Box. we still dont know what failed on engine #1 from what you say the motor is OK so has the g/box/clutch failed (not the oil gallery problem ?) some input would be good !!! Regards Jim
nath Posted November 16, 2008 Author Posted November 16, 2008 ok I didn't realise I was talking to Bob Marley .. wat uded need 2 doo is chill Fuel in the oil is not good issues here are was fuel put into the oil or was fuel intoduced to the oil ? Fuel could end up in the motor with bad rings & top end .. fuel being sent via the breather to the G/Box. we still dont know what failed on engine #1 from what you say the motor is OK so has the g/box/clutch failed (not the oil gallery problem ?) some input would be good !!! Regards Jim ok this is getting confusing... the fuel in the oil is on engine one (my failed engine) engine two's (the replacement) oil was fine... today im stripping the clutch from engine one to see if thats causing the problem... i think engine 2 is now a donor engine (tasty spare parts) rather than a replacement outright... ive also ordered a new headgasket, base gasket and new head nuts to the pricely sum of £80... i think ill order some rings tomorrow too...
JimR Posted November 16, 2008 Posted November 16, 2008 ok this is getting confusing... the fuel in the oil is on engine one (my failed engine) engine two's (the replacement) oil was fine... today im stripping the clutch from engine one to see if thats causing the problem... i think engine 2 is now a donor engine (tasty spare parts) rather than a replacement outright... ive also ordered a new headgasket, base gasket and new head nuts to the pricely sum of £80... i think ill order some rings tomorrow too... Ah with you now !!! so are you going to pull lump #2 to complete bits ? and fit the parts into lump #1's crankcases ? or is lump #1's bottom end ok, with the clutch off look very hard at the bearing,pressure plate and pull arm any sign of abnormal wear if so check them galleries I'd hate all that work to go to waste !!! Regards Jim
nath Posted November 16, 2008 Author Posted November 16, 2008 ho hum the saga will continue... the clutch is off - had the verniers on the plates etc nothing wrong the release bearing is A1 no signs of warpage,wear or distortion to anything then i had a play with the main shaft (give it a wiggle!) noticed a slight noise, went to the other side did the same with the drive shaft - lot more noise... so the culprit is the gearbox... and what do i have to disassemble to get to that??? pretty much everything else... quite heartbreaking when everything else is in good order... give me 5 minutes and ill get a soundclip of the noise...
nath Posted November 16, 2008 Author Posted November 16, 2008 i had to record it as a movie so that photobucket would accept it but listen to the noise... its not normal lets put it that way... oh and ignore me falling over enjoy!
JimR Posted November 16, 2008 Posted November 16, 2008 i had to record it as a movie so that photobucket would accept it but listen to the noise... its not normal lets put it that way... oh and ignore me falling over enjoy! oh well it is normal for a motor stripped that far ... you can hear the gearbox pinions taking up lash, perfectly fine, as I guess this motor is well dry of oil, but if you strip the motor further you will see where the noise comes from !!! as you have the motor that far down you might as well part the cases (access to the g/box) where I guess you will find nowt wrong. To part the cases undo all the bolts, remove the pistons then just part the cases. But bear in mind on rebuild make sure you use the same crankshaft with the same cases if not the oil clearence for the main bearing journals could be incorrect (unless you have a plastiguage to hand to check that out), same is true if the con rods are changed to the crankshaft (all those silly numbers stamped on the crank, con rods & cases work out which bearing you need to supply the correct clearence). Now youve gone that far you might as well pull it all the way down ! Regards Jim
nath Posted November 17, 2008 Author Posted November 17, 2008 Cheers Jim, that noise is the noise the bike makes at idle (albeit louder) so yeah im gonna go the whole hog and strip the cases down (oh how i hate trains ) just making a list now of what im gonna replace but i think its limited to the odd bearing and maybe the rings while they are exposed. What am i looking for with respect to the oil gallery and its operation. Its not something im familiar with...
JimR Posted November 17, 2008 Posted November 17, 2008 Cheers Jim, that noise is the noise the bike makes at idle (albeit louder) so yeah im gonna go the whole hog and strip the cases down (oh how i hate trains ) just making a list now of what im gonna replace but i think its limited to the odd bearing and maybe the rings while they are exposed. What am i looking for with respect to the oil gallery and its operation. Its not something im familiar with... I know this sounds silly, but I will stake my life on it, the noise you hear at idle is down to the carbs, I can put you in touch with someone who was amazed by what I did ... the engine came in sounding like last legs all I did to it was valve clearence, adjust the cam chain (auto adjusters can stick) and fettle the carbs ... hey presto it sounded like new, so don't be supprised if the idle noise is there after rebuild !!! the oil gallery to check is the hole that runs up from the crank to the genny shaft ... At the genny shaft remove the ally oil seal holder (held on with torx head screws, this assumes 1988ish FZ600 the video seems to bear this out) and to the bottom right ( 4 o'clockish or may be 7 o'clockish dependant on modal ) will be a pressed in nozzle (this supplies lube to the hyvo chain) remove it & check it's not blocked (high pressure air would be good for this). When the cases are apart you will see a drilling by the main g/box shaft bearing (in the top case) this links to the nozzle at the genny shaft, later engines may have this blanked off just tryying to find the correct w/s manual/parts list for the bike you have to confim this either way high pressure air from the hole in the top case by the main axle bearing. This hole supplies force fed oil to the g/box ... if blocked bye bye g/box. If the nozzle is blocked bye bye hyvo chain both blocked ... ohh shit !!!! . if you find the idle knock on rebuild I can sort that for you, but you would have to get the bike to my locality in order for me to do it. any more advice PM me and we can comunicate in other ways. Regards Jim
nath Posted November 19, 2008 Author Posted November 19, 2008 Think starwars... the story so far... And all the components bagged and labelled in sections... (lots of bags) Ive hit a wall though... I cant get the alternator off to split the cases... ive tried everything i can think of but it wont budge... any ideas???
JimR Posted November 20, 2008 Posted November 20, 2008 Think starwars... the story so far... And all the components bagged and labelled in sections... (lots of bags) Ive hit a wall though... I cant get the alternator off to split the cases... ive tried everything i can think of but it wont budge... any ideas??? Screw in the extractor bolt (tight) then shock the extractor bolt (hard) you may have to tighten the extractor bolt after each shock.. Regards Jim
nath Posted March 11, 2009 Author Posted March 11, 2009 Hi all sorry for the long reply but im at uni and well lets just say with the snow, exams, coursework and a prevalent lack of funds the FZ has sat unloved in the garden awaiting its return to the road!!! Just thought i would post up an update... The case is now split with the gears being cleaned (no faults as predicted jim!) the crank is out and appears ok, ive got new main bearing shells, big end shells, gudgeon pins + clips, head bolts, gaskets, fork seals and a plethora of pins, clips and washers - all from yamaha which has emptied my account good and proper! I cant afford new piston rings at £135+vat so im robbing the cylinders, pistons and rings from the 2HW engine and putting them in this one - a bodge i know but the spare engine was A1 when i bought it... The upper case half is going to a mechanic to get two high tensile studs removed which were drilled out to free the starter clutch (colbalt drill bits are good!!!) Ive also bought a spare frame, subframe, wheels, and a LH fairing so this is turning into a full restoration... Oh and some epic bodges are here as well - like wrapping bare wires around each other and sheathing in electrical tape (how much does a connector cost really???), or chocking the speedo with wood to stop it from vibrating - brilliant! Some pics for your viewing pleasure! OEM yamaha timber wedges The bike as it stands now...
JimR Posted March 11, 2009 Posted March 11, 2009 Hi all sorry for the long reply but im at uni and well lets just say with the snow, exams, coursework and a prevalent lack of funds the FZ has sat unloved in the garden awaiting its return to the road!!! Just thought i would post up an update... The case is now split with the gears being cleaned (no faults as predicted jim!) the crank is out and appears ok, ive got new main bearing shells, big end shells, gudgeon pins + clips, head bolts, gaskets, fork seals and a plethora of pins, clips and washers - all from yamaha which has emptied my account good and proper! I cant afford new piston rings at £135+vat so im robbing the cylinders, pistons and rings from the 2HW engine and putting them in this one - a bodge i know but the spare engine was A1 when i bought it... The upper case half is going to a mechanic to get two high tensile studs removed which were drilled out to free the starter clutch (colbalt drill bits are good!!!) Ive also bought a spare frame, subframe, wheels, and a LH fairing so this is turning into a full restoration... Oh and some epic bodges are here as well - like wrapping bare wires around each other and sheathing in electrical tape (how much does a connector cost really???), or chocking the speedo with wood to stop it from vibrating - brilliant! Hi Nath, I hope you didn't end up with 2 odd washers with recessed holes in them, they fit to the end of the g/box shafts and supply oil to the whole g/box if they are missing the results are terrible (last one I saw the g/box exited crankcase as the bike was still under warranty it cost Yamaha a fourtune) so just make sure there in there ! Regards Jim
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