xj600 (pre diversion) battery issue

[EPP]

Hi all,

Just got a 1990 xj600. Rode it home yesterday, about 100 miles, lots of stops, and it started absolutely fine every time. It sat overnight and started fine this morning. Went for a short ride with a couple of stops and again it started no problem... then when I got home and killed the engine, it wouldn't re-start afterwards. The starter motor turned the engine over, but it was sluggish. There was still over 12v at the battery though.

I'd been riding with the lights on and the chap I bought it from said that if you stop and start the bike a lot with lights on it kills the battery, but he didn't know why. I didn't have the light on when the engine wasn't running.

My first step is obviously to charge the battery and see if this sorts it out, but I wondered if anyone had any suggestion as to why this is happening? I'm not very experienced with motorcycles, but i'd have thought having the lights on when the engine was running wouldn't be a problem.

Cheers!

[JimR]

Hi all,

Just got a 1990 xj600. Rode it home yesterday, about 100 miles, lots of stops, and it started absolutely fine every time. It sat overnight and started fine this morning. Went for a short ride with a couple of stops and again it started no problem... then when I got home and killed the engine, it wouldn't re-start afterwards. The starter motor turned the engine over, but it was sluggish. There was still over 12v at the battery though.

I'd been riding with the lights on and the chap I bought it from said that if you stop and start the bike a lot with lights on it kills the battery, but he didn't know why. I didn't have the light on when the engine wasn't running.

My first step is obviously to charge the battery and see if this sorts it out, but I wondered if anyone had any suggestion as to why this is happening? I'm not very experienced with motorcycles, but i'd have thought having the lights on when the engine was running wouldn't be a problem.

Cheers!

Hi There

check the brushes in the genny (XJ550 had them) and I guess the 600 did to. when the bike is running what voltage do you get at 2k+ (should 13.8v) then do the same with the lights on the result sould be the same. If the 600 has a bush genny and the brushes r OK look to the rectifier/regulator, make sure all diodes are working red -> to the whites then the whites -> red then do the same with the black rather than red, then red to black & reverse. But perhaps the starter motor is suspect ? (this contains brushes also) and its dead easy to take off and connect to a battery to see at what rate it spins, if connected to a fully charged battery the starter motor should turn quickly (and sound like a food mixer) when removed from the engine, if it does not suspect the starter.

Regards Jim

[EPP]

Cheers Jim, that's loads to keep me thinking. As I said, I'll obviously just charge the battery first, but I'll be following your diagnostic suggestions after that. Will post a reply once I've found out more.

Ewan

[EPP]

Just an update really. Charged the battery - no help at all.

As before, the starter motor turns the engine over sluggishly once or twice then emits a rapid clicking noise (at least it sounds like it's coming from the starter). The rev counter rises whilst this happens.

I read an old post about an xj600 with starting issues that mentioned the starter clutch drive chain. Might this be slipping?

Cheers,

Ewan

[JimR]

Just an update really. Charged the battery - no help at all.

As before, the starter motor turns the engine over sluggishly once or twice then emits a rapid clicking noise (at least it sounds like it's coming from the starter). The rev counter rises whilst this happens.

I read an old post about an xj600 with starting issues that mentioned the starter clutch drive chain. Might this be slipping?

Cheers,

Ewan

Hi Ewan

hence why I suggested removing the starter motor and connecting a battery to it (the food mixer bit) with the rev counter rising indicates high current draw and the clicking you hee is the starter switch. With the starter removed & tested you can discount the starter motor and look else where (the motor contains brushes which if worn out could cause the problem)

regards Jim

[EPP]

Hi Ewan

hence why I suggested removing the starter motor and connecting a battery to it (the food mixer bit) with the rev counter rising indicates high current draw and the clicking you hee is the starter switch. With the starter removed & tested you can discount the starter motor and look else where (the motor contains brushes which if worn out could cause the problem)

regards Jim

Cheers Jim, the starter is where i'm going next. Just need to find the time. I didn't realise that worn brushes could result in a problem like this.

Ewan

[JimR]

Cheers Jim, the starter is where i'm going next. Just need to find the time. I didn't realise that worn brushes could result in a problem like this.

Ewan

Ok dont forget to remove it from the bike (2 X 6 mm , 10mm, headed bolts) and run it up on the floor/bench running it up insitu will not discount the motor if that spins ok then look at starter switch or clutch

Regards Jim

[EPP]

Removed the starter, tested it and checked the brushes. Everything fine so replaced back on the engine.

The battery just won't turn over the engine so, knowing the starter motor was okay, I decided to jump it from a car battery. Engine started no problem. You mentioned there should be 13.8v across the battery terminals with the engine running above >2000 revs (the workshop manual suggests it should be 14-15v at 5000 revs), but when I checked this the voltage didn't differ from when the engine wasn't running (it was about 10.5v, lower than the 12v it had been a few days before).

I therefore went to the genny (the 1990 xj600 doesn't have brushes as it turns out) and checked the resistance of the stator coil. It read 1.1 ohms across all terminals, whereas the manual says it should be between 0.31 and 0.37 ohms.

So, it looks like the stator might be defective. This would explain why the battery isn't being topped up properly when the engine is running, but I'm not sure if it explains battery drain whilst the bike is standing...

I'm off to check the wiring.

[Airhead]

It read 1.1 ohms across all terminals, whereas the manual says it should be between 0.31 and 0.37 ohms.

So, it looks like the stator might be defective. This would explain why the battery isn't being topped up properly when the engine is running, but I'm not sure if it explains battery drain whilst the bike is standing...

I'm off to check the wiring.

Be careful here though because most meters wont read zero when you touch the leads together!

Touch them together on the 200 ohm range, note the reading and then do the measuring, subtract the noted initial reading from the measured reading to get an accurate measurement

[EPP]

Be careful here though because most meters wont read zero when you touch the leads together!

Touch them together on the 200 ohm range, note the reading and then do the measuring, subtract the noted initial reading from the measured reading to get an accurate measurement

Good point! Touching the leads together gives 0.7ohms. The reading from the stator is 1-1.1 ohms, therefore the difference is between .3 and .4 ohms, which is within the required range. So, the stator appears to be fine.

Is it most likely to be a wiring problem preventing full charging voltage across the battery terminals? I don't want to have to hunt down a fault like that!

Cheers.

[JimR]

Good point! Touching the leads together gives 0.7ohms. The reading from the stator is 1-1.1 ohms, therefore the difference is between .3 and .4 ohms, which is within the required range. So, the stator appears to be fine.

Is it most likely to be a wiring problem preventing full charging voltage across the battery terminals? I don't want to have to hunt down a fault like that!

Cheers.

Dont forget the rectifier/regulator dead easy to do std ohm meter on low (20 ohm) do red ->whites, Whites ->Red (6 combinations) o/c one way and not the other, then do the same subbing the red wire with the black if thats OK the rectifier is deemed good, VR is more difficult to test (same finned box) the green wire and the brown wire from the box unless you have a Yamaha tester (p/n 90890-03021) to hand so perhaps the wiring could be checked after the rectifer (and found good) has been tested.. what you would be looking for is mouldy greens (not the dark green indicator wires slightly lighter green) , browns, Whites, Reds and blacks. If you find nowt wrong suspect the VR section of the finned box. but bear in mind there may be soldered joints in the loom (without a diagram I'm not sure), these are noted on Yamaha diagrams by dots and not plugs. The diagram I have is for the XJ550 (different in some respects volt meter and brushes in the genny) which shows a few soldered (in loom joints), I guess the 600 will have a few also, bear in mind soldered joints die over time (they become 'dry' i.e crack) so the diagram becomes needed as it will show where wires are jointed, or give you some idea on where to look on the loom for the soldered connections. Yamaha never guessed the looms would last 15-20 years (or the bikes for that matter) so solder joints is a cost effective way of making internal connections but all those years on we have the problems .... what happens when an R1 hits 20 years old (if there are still soldered joints, I dunno not played with one), major problems for the restorer !!!

Regards Jim

[EPP]

I've just finished testing the rectifier, which appears to be faulty. My multimeter has a diode test function, which made it pretty easy once I knew what I was doing. I also simply checked the output voltage of the rectifier with the engine running, and this was only 10.5v. Hopefully a replacement will sort everything out!

Whilst I was combing the internet for info, I found a great PDF flowchart that takes you through each step of testing the charging system. I've put the link below as others may find it helpful. I think it pretty much lays out all the steps Jim suggests and allows quick isolation of a fault.

[url="http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/diagnosis/fault-finding-guide.php"]

Jim, you mention that the reg/rec is a finned box, and this is also what turns up on spare parts websites when searching for xj600 replacements (and is what is pictured in the workshop manual). However, my reg/rec doesn't have fins and only has 4 terminals (for the the three white wires/one red wire). It's bolted to an aluminium plate for heat dissipation. There are no green and brown wires. Does this mean the regulator is a separate component?

Ewan

[JimR]

I've just finished testing the rectifier, which appears to be faulty. My multimeter has a diode test function, which made it pretty easy once I knew what I was doing. I also simply checked the output voltage of the rectifier with the engine running, and this was only 10.5v. Hopefully a replacement will sort everything out!

Whilst I was combing the internet for info, I found a great PDF flowchart that takes you through each step of testing the charging system. I've put the link below as others may find it helpful. I think it pretty much lays out all the steps Jim suggests and allows quick isolation of a fault.

[url="http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/diagnosis/fault-finding-guide.php"]

Jim, you mention that the reg/rec is a finned box, and this is also what turns up on spare parts websites when searching for xj600 replacements (and is what is pictured in the workshop manual). However, my reg/rec doesn't have fins and only has 4 terminals (for the the three white wires/one red wire). It's bolted to an aluminium plate for heat dissipation. There are no green and brown wires. Does this mean the regulator is a separate component?

Ewan

I cannot remember an XJ600 without a fined box for the reg/rec which part of the world was the bike made for ? If its a US modal it will have a totally different setup due to the bike not having a lights on/off switch and relays to switch the head light off when the starter is pressed. So I guess you had 10vdc between the red & earth what vac did you get from the whites ? It is possible that the green and brown wires are fed from the genny as you have the brushless genny onboard. To date I've checked loads of UK spec manuals and cannot find a modal wired as you say, but I did find SRX600 wired that way ( you can tell difference between SRX & XJ as it has only one cylinder ) so we must have the 4 cylinder XJ as 1) non UK spec 2) someones electrical project using bits from other bikes

Regards Jim

[EPP]

I cannot remember an XJ600 without a fined box for the reg/rec which part of the world was the bike made for ? If its a US modal it will have a totally different setup due to the bike not having a lights on/off switch and relays to switch the head light off when the starter is pressed. So I guess you had 10vdc between the red & earth what vac did you get from the whites ? It is possible that the green and brown wires are fed from the genny as you have the brushless genny onboard. To date I've checked loads of UK spec manuals and cannot find a modal wired as you say, but I did find SRX600 wired that way ( you can tell difference between SRX & XJ as it has only one cylinder ) so we must have the 4 cylinder XJ as 1) non UK spec 2) someones electrical project using bits from other bikes

Regards Jim

It might well have been imported at some stage but I couldn't say for sure. There is a light switch and the body panels (which could have been swapped) are branded xj rather than fj. There has been liberal use of electrical tape on the loom, which I'm guessing won't have been how it left the factory. It has heated grips fitted, which will have required some messing with the wiring, but to what extent I have no idea!

I got 10.5vdc between the red and earth. From the whites I was getting approx 60v at 5000rpm for each pairing, measured whilst disconnected from the reg/rec (i.e. from the connector leading from the stator).

I've tried to attach a photo of the reg/rec (i've checked that the link also works if you just cut and paste it into a browser). It shows some of the loom, and the white/red/black wires connected to reg/rec. As far as i can tell, three white wires plus two others (one white with a black line on it and one white with a red line) lead from the stator coil to under the fuel tank. The white wires connect to the loom via a three pin connector and lead to the reg/rec. The other two wires connect to the loom via a two pin connector and appear to resurface around the battery area where they connect to the ignitor, which mounts on the plastic bracket that holds the battery in its bay. (I'm just assuming they are the same wires as they have the same colour code).

I'm not sure i understand the purpose of the green and brown wires you mention, and whether they relate to VR.

Ewan

[JimR]

It might well have been imported at some stage but I couldn't say for sure. There is a light switch and the body panels (which could have been swapped) are branded xj rather than fj. There has been liberal use of electrical tape on the loom, which I'm guessing won't have been how it left the factory. It has heated grips fitted, which will have required some messing with the wiring, but to what extent I have no idea!

I got 10.5vdc between the red and earth. From the whites I was getting approx 60v at 5000rpm for each pairing, measured whilst disconnected from the reg/rec (i.e. from the connector leading from the stator).

I've tried to attach a photo of the reg/rec (i've checked that the link also works if you just cut and paste it into a browser). It shows some of the loom, and the white/red/black wires connected to reg/rec. As far as i can tell, three white wires plus two others (one white with a black line on it and one white with a red line) lead from the stator coil to under the fuel tank. The white wires connect to the loom via a three pin connector and lead to the reg/rec. The other two wires connect to the loom via a two pin connector and appear to resurface around the battery area where they connect to the ignitor, which mounts on the plastic bracket that holds the battery in its bay. (I'm just assuming they are the same wires as they have the same colour code).

I'm not sure i understand the purpose of the green and brown wires you mention, and whether they relate to VR.

Ewan

Ok you can get a 47X reg/rec from wemoto.com part number 47X-81960-A3. Brown wire supplies 12v dc to most components, green was the cut off for VR to stop over/under charging. 47X is the product code for the RD500/RZ500 so your bike may not be UK spec .. no finned box !!!. The white with red trace is the ignition pickup coil.

check this out .. no XJ600's just FZ's so this is making me think the photo looks XJ (apart from the tank colour but that can change from std) but the set up appears FZ (same period as RD/Z500 in the UK) hence the same wiring so perhaps you have an FZ600 lump fitted into an XJ frame and the electrics ported across could I have the engine number prefix (first 3 digits) and the same for the frame.

Regards Jim

[EPP]

Ok you can get a 47X reg/rec from wemoto.com part number 47X-81960-A3. Brown wire supplies 12v dc to most components, green was the cut off for VR to stop over/under charging. 47X is the product code for the RD500/RZ500 so your bike may not be UK spec .. no finned box !!!. The white with red trace is the ignition pickup coil.

check this out .. no XJ600's just FZ's so this is making me think the photo looks XJ (apart from the tank colour but that can change from std) but the set up appears FZ (same period as RD/Z500 in the UK) hence the same wiring so perhaps you have an FZ600 lump fitted into an XJ frame and the electrics ported across could I have the engine number prefix (first 3 digits) and the same for the frame.

Regards Jim

Hi Jim,

Frame number:51j - 071175

Engine: x51j - 071175

I assume this means it is the original engine? On the frame plate it also lists the bike as an xj600 rather than an fj600 so that suggests it isn't an import. Could it be that the last of the pre-diversion models moved over to electrics similar to the fzr after it superceeded the fz? It was probably more cost effective to move production over to the newer system. Perhaps the liberal use of electrical tape on my system is due to an earlier fault finding mission - the bike is 18 years old after all!

I picked up a used 47x rectifier this morning, tested it (all reading correct) and popped it on the bike. Started it up and still only got about 10.5vdc from it. It also became too hot to touch within about 2 minutes, which I didn't think was right. I know they'll produce some heat but that seemed excessive. It came from an fzr250, which appears to use the same part as the fzr600 (and presumably the xj600...). I might try buying a new one!

Cheers,

Ewan

[JimR]

Hi Jim,

Frame number:51j - 071175

Engine: x51j - 071175

I assume this means it is the original engine? On the frame plate it also lists the bike as an xj600 rather than an fj600 so that suggests it isn't an import. Could it be that the last of the pre-diversion models moved over to electrics similar to the fzr after it superceeded the fz? It was probably more cost effective to move production over to the newer system. Perhaps the liberal use of electrical tape on my system is due to an earlier fault finding mission - the bike is 18 years old after all!

I picked up a used 47x rectifier this morning, tested it (all reading correct) and popped it on the bike. Started it up and still only got about 10.5vdc from it. It also became too hot to touch within about 2 minutes, which I didn't think was right. I know they'll produce some heat but that seemed excessive. It came from an fzr250, which appears to use the same part as the fzr600 (and presumably the xj600...). I might try buying a new one!

Cheers,

Ewan

ok Ewan,

time to check the voltage from the genny ... find the plug from the genny with 3 whites ... this will produce VAC across each other (hence 3 phase generator) this test should be done with 'no load' (the plug disconnected) and the voltage should be the same but I guess this will work out correct. but can you confirm the wires you find are either comming out of the l/h cover at the end of the crankshaft or from the circular cover behind the cylinder and below the carbs on the l/h side of the motor ? This will explain to me which charging system you have.

Regards Jim

[EPP]

ok Ewan,

time to check the voltage from the genny ... find the plug from the genny with 3 whites ... this will produce VAC across each other (hence 3 phase generator) this test should be done with 'no load' (the plug disconnected) and the voltage should be the same but I guess this will work out correct. but can you confirm the wires you find are either comming out of the l/h cover at the end of the crankshaft or from the circular cover behind the cylinder and below the carbs on the l/h side of the motor ? This will explain to me which charging system you have.

Regards Jim

PROBLEM SOLVED!

Hi Jim, I tested the genny output before, and it was within typical range (comfortable over 50v at 5000rpm, see earlier post).

Since my last post I bought an Acumen Platinum smart charger and gave the battery a proper charge. I realise now that the charger I had been using was faulty and not charging the battery effectively. I was just jumping from a car battery to get the engine going to do the diagnostic tests, knowing that the bike battery level wouldn't affect the genny output test and tests done with the engine dead (i.e. stator resistance and diode tests). When I'd been doing the diagnostics on the replacement rectifier (when it seemed to get too hot and only give out 10.5vdc), the battery was not properly charged. I know all diagnostics should be carried out with a charged battery, but I didn't realise it would affect the output of the rectifier so much - I assumed the output would be the same whatever the battery level. Now, with a well charged battery, the bike started a treat and I'm getting 14.2vdc across the battery terminals, as it should be. Rectifier still gets hot, but I figure this must be normal if everything else works as it should.

Massive thanks for all the patient help and advice - I've learnt masses already and know what to look for next time!

So, the moral of the story is get a good charger and make sure the battery is topped up for the rectifier output test!

Cheers,

Ewan

[JimR]

PROBLEM SOLVED!

Hi Jim, I tested the genny output before, and it was within typical range (comfortable over 50v at 5000rpm, see earlier post).

Since my last post I bought an Acumen Platinum smart charger and gave the battery a proper charge. I realise now that the charger I had been using was faulty and not charging the battery effectively. I was just jumping from a car battery to get the engine going to do the diagnostic tests, knowing that the bike battery level wouldn't affect the genny output test and tests done with the engine dead (i.e. stator resistance and diode tests). When I'd been doing the diagnostics on the replacement rectifier (when it seemed to get too hot and only give out 10.5vdc), the battery was not properly charged. I know all diagnostics should be carried out with a charged battery, but I didn't realise it would affect the output of the rectifier so much - I assumed the output would be the same whatever the battery level. Now, with a well charged battery, the bike started a treat and I'm getting 14.2vdc across the battery terminals, as it should be. Rectifier still gets hot, but I figure this must be normal if everything else works as it should.

Massive thanks for all the patient help and advice - I've learnt masses already and know what to look for next time!

So, the moral of the story is get a good charger and make sure the battery is topped up for the rectifier output test!

Cheers,

Ewan

Glad everthing is ok ..... you dint state the battery was down (unless I missed it) but 14.2 should be 14.8 at max revs (ie 6000) you may find that the battery is nacked ... the vr/rec should not get hot it would appear the battery is still giving you problems

Regards Jim

[EPP]

Glad everthing is ok ..... you dint state the battery was down (unless I missed it) but 14.2 should be 14.8 at max revs (ie 6000) you may find that the battery is nacked ... the vr/rec should not get hot it would appear the battery is still giving you problems

Regards Jim

Well, we will never know now... Just been out for a test ride, stopped off at my mate's house, went in for half an hour and when I went back out the bike was gone. I would have heard it being started up, and the steering lock was on, so I guess it's been thrown in the back of a van and is on it's way to being broken for parts! Reported to the police, but I'd be very surprised if it ever sees the light of day in one piece again.

Sometimes it's best just to know when you're beaten A real shame too as it was a nice bike. That could be the end of my biking days before they even began - I can't justify the expense of a replacement when insurance excess and premium increase is taken into account.

Cheers for all the help though,

Ewan